Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I was thinking the same exact thing. Imagine how much the FO would have been ripped if they drafted Royal or DeSean Jackson? By the way, the other 'big' WR that we were considering in the draft James Hardy had 9 catches for 87 yards.

If this front office traded for a healthy Tom Brady JLC would criticize them for him being a character risk for having a baby out of wedlock.

Wide Receiver seems like such a situational position to me. Kelly could have probably gone to Denver and put up the same stats as Eddie Royal, Thomas could have probably gone to Philly and produced like DeSean Jackson and DeSean Jackson could have come here and been inactive most of the year (due to poor attitude and excessive clubbing). Hardy's got talent, but the Bills offense might be as dysfunctional as ours.

It just seems that WR stats fluctuate wildly based on circumstance. Look when Welker goes to NE, Moss goes to Oakland, Roddy White gets a new QB, Santana is all over the map, etc.)

I just find it hard to believe that we whiffed completely on Kelly, Thomas and Davis. With our offense being one of the worst in the league, I don't see how we could have done any worse with those guys on the field. And like I've said many times, there are ways to move the ball and score points without relying heavily on receivers (San Diego, Miami, Baltimore, KC, for many years, etc.).

I'm more inclined to point to other factors, such as poor coaching and development, poor pass protection and/or poor QB play (hard to tell for sure what's to blame), and poor play calling.

And it's not just with rookies. We take guys like Brandon Lloyd and David Patten and get little to no production out of them (New Orleans and Chicago got at least marginal production from both of them). There are systemic problems with the Skins than supercede any deficiencies with the players.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

Wide Receiver seems like such a situational position to me. Kelly could have probably gone to Denver and put up the same stats as Eddie Royal, Thomas could have probably gone to Philly and produced like DeSean Jackson and DeSean Jackson could have come here and been inactive most of the year (due to poor attitude and excessive clubbing). Hardy's got talent, but the Bills offense might be as dysfunctional as ours.

It just seems that WR stats fluctuate wildly based on circumstance. Look when Welker goes to NE, Moss goes to Oakland, Roddy White gets a new QB, Santana is all over the map, etc.)

I just find it hard to believe that we whiffed completely on Kelly, Thomas and Davis. With our offense being one of the worst in the league, I don't see how we could have done any worse with those guys on the field. And like I've said many times, there are ways to move the ball and score points without relying heavily on receivers (San Diego, Miami, Baltimore, KC, for many years, etc.).

I'm more inclined to point to other factors, such as poor coaching and development, poor pass protection and/or poor QB play (hard to tell for sure what's to blame), and poor play calling.

And it's not just with rookies. We take guys like Brandon Lloyd and David Patten and get little to no production out of them (New Orleans and Chicago got at least marginal production from both of them). There are systemic problems with the Skins than supercede any deficiencies with the players.

Great post. IMO it comes right down to some of the things you mentioned. Poor coaching/ play calling, up and down QB play. Davis was the best TE in college last year yet we can't even get him on the field. Then I watch Philly over the weekend and McNabb is throwing to some TE that I've never seen or heard of.

While I was watching the Philly game and really could not believe that McNabb gets it done with the current group... guys like Curtis, Avery, Brown, Jackson and some no name TE. Actually I think Jackson is the best of the group and he's a rookie. And Reid has so much confidence in McNabb that he's calling pass plays from shotgun on their own 3 yard line. After watching Philly over the weekend I'd almost be more inclined to fire Zorn if I were Snyder.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

And Reid has so much confidence in McNabb that he's calling pass plays from shotgun on their own 3 yard line

Confidence in the pass protection.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Confidence in the pass protection.

Their O line ain't all that. McNabb always has people in his face. Let's not pretend that every QB in the league has all day to throw while JC gets gang tackled on every pass play.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

And Reid has so much confidence in McNabb that he's calling pass plays from shotgun on their own 3 yard line. After watching Philly over the weekend I'd almost be more inclined to fire Zorn if I were Snyder.

Why does Reid have confidence in McNabb(if he does) because he has been with him forever. I would think that the Eagles resurgence would give more proof that time and patience are what Zorn/Campbell needs, not a quick firing.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Why does Reid have confidence in McNabb(if he does) because he has been with him forever. I would think that the Eagles resurgence would give more proof that time and patience are what Zorn/Campbell needs, not a quick firing.

Yeah seriously, Reid and McNabb have been together forever now. There's a reason why their offense functions at the level that it does. Constant firing of coaches and changing QBs gets you nowhere.

[firstdown]

Here is just a tought. Zorn comes here and has to build a playbook and also teach it to our players. He spends most of his time concerned with our starters learning the plays first and then sometime with back ups and rookies (remember no one knows the play book). We start the season and things look pretty good so they keep working with the starters and getting them ready for the games and adding new plays. While things are working great the time is spent with the starters and not the back ups and/or rookies (remember players are still learning the play book). So we are now 8 games into the season and it seems everything is going better than planned but things then start to go wrong. We are also now limited to who we can start or play because all the time was needed to get the starters up to speed in Zorns O. So now when teams have figured out how to stop the Skins we really did not have a plan B because we never had a chance to get them into the system.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Here is just a tought. Zorn comes here and has to build a playbook and also teach it to our players. He spends most of his time concerned with our starters learning the plays first and then sometime with back ups and rookies (remember no one knows the play book). We start the season and things look pretty good so they keep working with the starters and getting them ready for the games and adding new plays. While things are working great the time is spent with the starters and not the back ups and/or rookies (remember players are still learning the play book). So we are now 8 games into the season and it seems everything is going better than planned but things then start to go wrong. We are also now limited to who we can start or play because all the time was needed to get the starters up to speed in Zorns O. So now when teams have figured out how to stop the Skins we really did not have a plan B because we never had a chance to get them into the system.

This makes some sense, but I would guess that the rooks got some time w/the 1st unit, especially in 3 & 4 wr sets. Your point also is that the players need hands on training, which I'm sure they do in a new system. However, that doesn't mean everyone's not expected to come to practice prepared, i.e. in shape & knowing the plays (from a knowledge standpoint of the playbook at least). Zorn said these guys weren't in shape & if what JLC says is true, they didn't have a good grasp of the offense throughout the year as well.

Thomas got plenty of playing time as the season went on. That last pick in the Pitt game, JLC said was Thomas' fault for running the route poorly. Don't know if that's true, but regardless, he either wasn't getting open on most plays, JC didn't see him often, or JC didn't look his way much for lack of trust. Whatever the conclusion, at this point I don't see how anyone could say he had a good rookie year. Let's hope he comes to ota's & camp ready to work & takes ARE's starting spot.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Why does Reid have confidence in McNabb(if he does) because he has been with him forever. I would think that the Eagles resurgence would give more proof that time and patience are what Zorn/Campbell needs, not a quick firing.

The Eagles went 11-5 in McNabb's first full season as a starter. Reid was in his second year in Philly.

McNabb had 21 TDs and 13 INTs that year and he rushed for 629 yards and 6 TDs.

Reid's teams have gone to the playoffs 11 times in 14 years as a head coach.

Campbell has 36 starts under his belt.

There were rookie coaches that had confidence in rookie QBs this year. If Zorn can't get creative on offense, because he doesn't have confidence in Campbell YET, then something's wrong and more games isn't going to fix it.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

The Eagles went 11-5 in McNabb's first full season as a starter. Reid was in his second year in Philly.

McNabb had 21 TDs and 13 INTs that year and he rushed for 629 yards and 6 TDs.

Reid's teams have gone to the playoffs 11 times in 14 years as a head coach.

Campbell has 36 starts under his belt.

There were rookie coaches that had confidence in rookie QBs this year. If Zorn can't get creative on offense, because he doesn't have confidence in Campbell YET, then something's wrong and more games isn't going to fix it.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I think Zorn had confidence in Campbell, and that is why we became more pass oriented. My point about time is that time brings "intimacy". A newly married couple may be confident in each other's love and have strong beliefs about how the other will act. BUT a couple who has been married 7 yrs or more have an intimacy of knowledge as to what each will do, and they work more as a unit (in a perfect world obviously).

That may not be a perfect analogy, and in football we are talking months not years, but as Zorn and Campbell work together, and the rest of the team around them, the depth and available options should only increase. Yes there have been some rookie hc's that were more successful, but I'm pretty sure I could with little effort cite examples of rookie hc's that were far less successful.

Finally, my main point was that in the Dan Snyder era, we have constantly changed system/coach/qb thus never letting the "intimacy" of a system develop. So if the Eagles win shows anything to Dan I would hope it would be that you don't have to scrap everything when you hit harder times.

For the record, McNabb may have gone 11-5 his first full year, but how many times has he failed in reaching the playoffs/superbowl; ask yourself, would the old Dan Snyder be patient with THAT number? Would Andy Reid still have a job? or what about Eli Manning and Tom Coughlin?

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I think Zorn had confidence in Campbell, and that is why we became more pass oriented. My point about time is that time brings "intimacy". A newly married couple may be confident in each other's love and have strong beliefs about how the other will act. BUT a couple who has been married 7 yrs or more have an intimacy of knowledge as to what each will do, and they work more as a unit (in a perfect world obviously).

That may not be a perfect analogy, and in football we are talking months not years, but as Zorn and Campbell work together, and the rest of the team around them, the depth and available options should only increase. Yes there have been some rookie hc's that were more successful, but I'm pretty sure I could with little effort cite examples of rookie hc's that were far less successful.

Finally, my main point was that in the Dan Snyder era, we have constantly changed system/coach/qb thus never letting the "intimacy" of a system develop. So if the Eagles win shows anything to Dan I would hope it would be that you don't have to scrap everything when you hit harder times.

For the record, McNabb may have gone 11-5 his first full year, but how many times has he failed in reaching the playoffs/superbowl; ask yourself, would the old Dan Snyder be patient with THAT number? Would Andy Reid still have a job? or what about Eli Manning and Tom Coughlin?

Not many times and yes, as bad an owner DS is, I think he'd be thrilled with Reid and McNabb's track record. McNabb went to 4 conference championships in a row and a Super Bowl. He's generally been a very productive QB and still takes as much or more criticism than Campbell.

But I hear you. DS has been a failure as an owner. I won't argue that.