Skins work out JaMarcus Russell (and a bunch of other free agents)

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

I guess I'll never convince you that the NFL has missed on QBs, because I'll name guys like Brad Johnson, Trent Green and Tony Romo and you'll just say something about how you knew all along they were better than terrible.

First of all, talent is a "natural ability or quality of a person". Work ethic, is not something like arm strength or pocket presence.

You keep on citing flaws in talent evaluation, but you keep on missing what flaws you actually are citing and not making the actual connection between evaluating Russell and a Romo.

The difference in the flaws regarding Romo, etc were a matter of overstating lack of physical ability and lack of popular media exposure. They had, however, the mental intangibles to QB in the league. Not just from a work ethic, but instincts like pocket presence, etc.

The flaw in evaluating Russell's talent was overstating his PHYSICAL attributes and overlooking his mental areas. . People saw physical talent in Russell. They still do now. They didn't get that wrong.

They WERE wrong that he would have the work ethic to pan out.

As for actual MENTAL TALENTS, like pocket presence, he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. It's up to him to prove he actually has the ability to go through his progressions, etc, AFTER shoring up his work ethic, IF he ever does. I'm pretty sure everyone was hollering that he was mentally talented too, but he hasn't verified that expectation either.

I wasn't into football around 2007, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought Russell was going to be a sure thing. You're right that people didn't evaluate Russell correctly. Incorrect in the sense that they thought he was going to be any good.

Isn't it possible the body language and play of his teammates had something to do with poor leadership and the fact they were going nowhere?

No, they played like they gave a damn when Gradkowski was in there. They still do now. He also displayed a "deer in headlights" way of playing. He took sacks after holding the ball for a long time.

You act as if the only thing that matters for success is a good QB. You act as if Russell just had to make the decision to be good, and they would have won the Superbowl, regardless of how bad the rest of the organization was.

You're extremely vague in how this "toxicity" provided such a huge disincentive for Russell to do anything that even his pride of losing the starting job and job insecurity were not enough to provide a counterincentive and start working his ass off.

Vince Young woke up in part because of that and some other reasons.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

First of all, talent is a "natural ability or quality of a person". Work ethic, is not something like arm strength or pocket presence.

You keep on citing flaws in talent evaluation, but you keep on missing what flaws you actually are citing and not making the actual connection between evaluating Russell and a Romo.

The difference in the flaws regarding Romo, etc were a matter of overstating lack of physical ability and lack of popular media exposure. They had, however, the mental intangibles to QB in the league. Not just from a work ethic, but instincts like pocket presence, etc.

The flaw in evaluating Russell's talent was overstating his PHYSICAL attributes and overlooking his mental areas. . People saw physical talent in Russell. They still do now. They didn't get that wrong.

They WERE wrong that he would have the work ethic to pan out.

As for actual MENTAL TALENTS, like pocket presence, he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. It's up to him to prove he actually has the ability to go through his progressions, etc, AFTER shoring up his work ethic, IF he ever does. I'm pretty sure everyone was hollering that he was mentally talented too, but he hasn't verified that expectation either.

I wasn't into football around 2007, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought Russell was going to be a sure thing. You're right that people didn't evaluate Russell correctly. Incorrect in the sense that they thought he was going to be any good.

So, NFL scouts missed on Romo because they thought he wasn't enough of an athlete, and he currently ranks 4th best in passer rating all-time. We obviously know they were wrong about Romo.

But, NFL scouts missed on Russell because they thought he was more mature than he really is, and there is absolutely no way they could be wrong about it (now or in the future) because the reasoning is different?

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

No, they played like they gave a damn when Gradkowski was in there. They still do now. He also displayed a "deer in headlights" way of playing. He took sacks after holding the ball for a long time.

I disagree about them giving a damn due to Gradkowski, but whatever.

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

You're extremely vague in how this "toxicity" provided such a huge disincentive for Russell to do anything that even his pride of losing the starting job and job insecurity were not enough to provide a counterincentive and start working his ass off.

Vince Young woke up in part because of that and some other reasons.

Incentive has nothing to do with Russell's performance, and I never argued that. Incentive and maturity are unrelated. You are arguing that he had all the incentive in the world, and that alone should have been enough for him to turn into something. I'm saying it takes more than that -- it takes a team.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

So, NFL scouts missed on Romo because they thought he wasn't enough of an athlete, and he currently ranks 4th best in passer rating all-time. We obviously know they were wrong about Romo.

But, NFL scouts missed on Russell because they thought he was more mature than he really is, and there is absolutely no way they could be wrong about it (now or in the future) because the reasoning is different?

You keep on trying to spin it as a "they were wrong". Maturity is not the same as work ethic or skills like pocket presence. Besides, the guy had one of those tougher and touching childhood stories that would make anyone expect him to be one of the MORE mature people out there, not less.

They(or at least Mike Mayock) was right that he had a work ethic concern.

And really, do NFL scouts do this much work for someone post draft? They're busy checking out that next year's draft class. When people are talking about JaFatcus failing or not, it the media and fans on message boards like us.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

You keep on trying to spin it as a "they were wrong". Maturity is not the same as work ethic or skills like pocket presence. Besides, the guy had one of those tougher and touching childhood stories that would make anyone expect him to be one of the MORE mature people out there, not less.

They(or at least Mike Mayock) was right that he had a work ethic concern.

And really, do NFL scouts do this much work for someone post draft? They're busy checking out that next year's draft class. When people are talking about JaFatcus failing or not, it the media and fans on message boards like us.

I've never tried to spin it as "they were wrong", I've just been trying to get you to understand how they COULD be wrong. Go back and re-read my posts. I am not making any conclusions about him, and you are 100% certain he is a bust, based on weak evidence -- that is the difference between our arguments.

Also, to say that work ethic has nothing to do with maturity is ridiculous.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

I've never tried to spin it as "they were wrong", I've just been trying to get you to understand how they COULD be wrong. Go back and re-read my posts. I am not making any conclusions about him, and you are 100% certain he is a bust, based on weak evidence -- that is the difference between our arguments.

Also, to say that work ethic has nothing to do with maturity is ridiculous.

I've been exposed to way too much probability in my lifetime to treat anything as a 100% certainty. That said, I feel 95% certain Russell will be flipping burgers down the road since not enough has happened to him to make the needed change. Michael Vick needed prison. Vince Young needed a benching and the death of his hero. Once you pass 22 years or something, we humans become very stubborn in our habits.

I was reading an old article on Russell. He had it tough and was saying all the right things. By appearances, he seemed likely to be a mature individual then.