Media Bias

[punch it in]

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1243664]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Biden was acting on behalf of the official policy of the united states government at the time.



This is not about threatening to cut off a country's aid. There is nothing wrong with that. Its done all the time. I would hope that Trump regularly uses his power as POTUS to exert pressure on other world leaders to support America's interests.



The difference here is that, in this case, if the allegations are true, Trump would not have been acting on behalf of the United states official policy towards Ukraine. He would have been using his power for PERSONAL political gain.



The president investing corruption is doing the same.



Bolded. You are jumping



Read the transcripts… and put down the "opinion" articles. The facts don't connect these things. Bribery, Treason, and Extortion are high crimes and misdemeanors, if these things were true and proven the Impeachment article would have included these along with the witness testimony/documentation within the House process. They didn't.

What transcripts? You mean the summary of the transcript???? Why block witnesses from testifying? Come the fuck on man. You stop listening to Fox and open your own actual eyes

[Chico23231]

[quote=punch it in;1243680]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

What transcripts? You mean the summary of the transcript???? Why block witnesses from testifying? Come the fuck on man. You stop listening to Fox and open your own actual eyes

The transcripts and testimony matched up. The President wasn't given due process in the house.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Biden was acting on behalf of the official policy of the united states government at the time.

This is not about threatening to cut off a country's aid. There is nothing wrong with that. Its done all the time. I would hope that Trump regularly uses his power as POTUS to exert pressure on other world leaders to support America's interests.

The difference here is that, in this case, if the allegations are true, Trump would not have been acting on behalf of the United states official policy towards Ukraine. He would have been using his power for PERSONAL political gain.

This is the difference. Whether you agree with it or not, do you understand that part?

BUT, that really falls under the concept of a black or white fallacy.

The black-or-white fallacy occurs in arguments that have a disjunctive premise―that is, one that gives alternatives―when one or more alternatives is incorrectly omitted. The fallacy tries to force you to choose either black or white when gray is an available alternative.

It is entirely possible (and honestly highly likely) that President Trump was using his power for both Official Policy (rooting out corruption in Ukraine - this is obviously a strong and ongoing interest for US policy) and personal political gain. That is what Pres Obama did in asking the Russian Foreign Minister to let Putin know he would have more leeway after his election. Bush did it by expressing "Mission Accomplished" on a US Naval vessel, he clearly wanted to energize his base, AND strengthen his US policy toward Iraq. It has been done in many ways and many times. And I would say that, in Biden's case, holding up the aid to remove the prosecutor also falls under both - upholding US policy, and in the interest of Biden's personal family's gain/protection.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

BUT, that really falls under the concept of a black or white fallacy.



It is entirely possible (and honestly highly likely) that President Trump was using his power for both Official Policy (rooting out corruption in Ukraine - this is obviously a strong and ongoing interest for US policy) and personal political gain. That is what Pres Obama did in asking the Russian Foreign Minister to let Putin know he would have more leeway after his election. Bush did it by expressing "Mission Accomplished" on a US Naval vessel, he clearly wanted to energize his base, AND strengthen his US policy toward Iraq. It has been done in many ways and many times. And I would say that, in Biden's case, holding up the aid to remove the prosecutor also falls under both - upholding US policy, and in the interest of Biden's personal family's gain/protection.

Let's be honest here Cred. Do you really think Donald Trump, the supremely self-centered leader of our country who only really cares about himself, is concerned with corruption in the Ukraine?

He wants the Biden investigation announced because it helps Trump politically, in the upcoming election of his life. Literally. If Trump loses in November, I guarantee you there will be state and/or federal prosecutors lining up cases to move against him that he won't be able to use the protection of the POTUS to defend himself against.

I agree with you, I think Joe Biden used his position to help his struggling son out and it was an absolutely terrible move in hindsight. He probably sold Burisma on the job for Hunter as a way to get access to himself. Let's not act like Trump is a saint in that regard either, for the price of a Mar-A-Lago membership or a drink at the Trump Hotel you can get access to Trump or Guliani. And who can forget, you can literally record an hour long video of Trump talking inside the White House and all you have to do is be a donor or a Guliani henchman.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by mooby

Let's be honest here Cred. Do you really think Donald Trump, the supremely self-centered leader of our country who only really cares about himself, is concerned with corruption in the Ukraine?

...

And ultimately this is the Democratic argument, at best with witnesses it will be a he said/he said on the linkage. And half the country will like Don Lemon and his ilk will laugh at Trump supporters for supporting Trump, and half, like me, will be disgusted with the never trumpers and rational people who hate Trump and assume/accept that all his intentions must be evil/self centered.

It's not going to resolve and hearts/minds are not going to change, and I am remembering why I left the debate As Sunnyside said, we get sucked in to a time wasting slew of disgust for people who we should have a major common point (HTTR) of agreement, except G1 who sucks all around! (j/k G1, just your politics and football suck, I am sure you have many other redeeming qualities)

edit: and so you don't think I am deflecting - yes I think he cared about Ukraine in 2017 and 2018. This is from a 2018 WP article

Time and again, U.S. officials have said anti-corruption efforts were part of U.S. policy in Ukraine.

“The leaders agreed on the importance of expanding bilateral trade and investment, and the Vice President underscored the need for continued reforms to fight corruption, increase transparency, and improve the business climate,” read the March 2018 readout of Vice President Pence’s call with then-Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko.

[Giantone]

[quote=Chico23231;1243688]

Originally Posted by punch it in

The transcripts and testimony matched up. The President wasn't given due process in the house.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!

[SunnySide]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

It's not going to resolve and hearts/minds are not going to change, and I am remembering why I left the debate As Sunnyside said, we get sucked in to a time wasting slew of disgust for people who we should have a major common point (HTTR) of agreement, except G1 who sucks all around! (j/k G1, just your politics and football suck, I am sure you have many other redeeming qualities)

That is what i can control. My reaction and feelings to others diffirent than me. If I cant listen to someone else's opinion that I disagree with and properly compartamentalize ... that is a failure on my part. What am I, a 6 year old?

I was at a funeral and someone said "life is 10% what happens to you, 90% how you react to it".

But I do think discussion is important, we as humans talk and gossip. Im always caught between wanting to talk politics and getting frustrated vs just sticking my head in the sand.

My bottom line in politics is this and so far I dont think ive been wrong ... whether its a D or an R in control, it never actually effects my day to day life. So why get so worked up? Under Obama and now Trump, I cant say my life has changed for better or worse or even been effected at all. I felt better and prouder under Obama so why shouldnt my brethern trump supporters get their day under the sun?

(Outside of medicinal marijuana in MD which seemed to be bipartisan in MD and some local Howard County Board of Ed decisions I advocated against ... local local politics is what effects me. Will they put a bike lane in, will they cut arts funding, new playground etc).

[punch it in]

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1243688]

Originally Posted by punch it in

The transcripts and testimony matched up. The President wasn't given due process in the house.

Holy shit. Talk about “fox news talking points”. He wouldn’t let anyone testify. Him n Moscow Mitch stonewalled the entire thing.

[CRedskinsRule]

Gotta love CNN Fearmongering

GOP theory for acquittal could unleash Trump

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[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Gotta love CNN Fearmongering




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Speaking of fear mongering...shouldn't we be in the WW3 by now? I was told with the Iran ordeal we were being dragged into war? what happened?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Speaking of fear mongering...shouldn't we be in the WW3 by now? I was told with the Iran ordeal we were being dragged into war? what happened?

Well actually we should be in post apocalyptic future of the Korean War struggling through the 2nd Great Depression.

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[punch it in]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Gotta love CNN Fearmongering




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Yeah because National Security and Democracy are nothing to worry about. Just stop. There really is a reason why lying, greedy, narcissistic a-holes shouldn’t be President. Besides the fact that they are abrasive

[punch it in]

You two are acting like such simpletons. Just because nukes aren’t being launched doesn’t mean irreparable damage isnt being done to the country.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by punch it in

You two are acting like such simpletons. Just because nukes aren’t being launched doesn’t mean irreparable damage isnt being done to the country.

But that isnt what CNN is selling or trading on. They are pure fear.

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[punch it in]

Basically besides you guys, Trump, Conway, Trumps family, Fox news, and his base are the only ones who don’t see the issue. Oh and of course Rudy and all the GOP Senators who want to get re-elected. Every general, everyone who worked with the guy, the CIA, FBI, and every other intelligence agency along with the majority of the people here in the country can see the problem. But Ill let you two get back to your Jokes.