Will Dan Snyder finally fire Vinny Cerrato

[mlmdub130]

Originally Posted by firstdown

That makes no sense. He has every right to work in the NFL and if some team wants to hire them I hope its in our division.

yes yes and yes, i would love to see if anyone is crazy enough to hire him, hopefully new york they are building a pretty good team upthere vinny needs to get on that asap

[Daseal]

If I weren't so lazy, I'd go to some of the pre-preseason threads and look at who here is complaining about Vinny that was talking about all the talent we have on the team a few months ago. I don't care for Vinny, more because he's too much of a yes man. His personnel decisions haven't been atrocious, in my opinion. He made some mistakes (real lack of OL depth) but every team has weak points. We also have a QB and a RB that make them look even worse than they are at times. When it comes down to it, this team needs a strong GM that is a buffer between coach and owner.

I don't think Vinny has been terrible at acquiring talent. He hasn't been stellar either, but we don't have a team devoid of talent. He didn't strike out on many high draft picks. He's the golden boy in the 7th round.

I think Snyder, and to a lesser extent, Vinny, are getting beat up a bit more than they should. For me, this team has issues, but not the type of issues we've seen so far. With our cup cake schedule losing more than 2 is pathetic. Even that 2nd one should never happen with the teams we played. Zorn is not a head coach in this league, at least not yet. Most of my anger is pointed in his direction. He seems to be getting a pass, and I don't understand why.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Can you list some examples?

I don't know but you might want to ask the likes of Scott Campbell, Eric Shaffer, and Morocco Brown. It's not like the cupboard is totally bare when it comes to the front office. There's some quality guys there.

Not sure how long those blokes have been at the franchise but the longer the better I guess?

I watched that clip in the "When the Madness Began" thread from 2000 (before I started paying close attention to the Skins year around and especially the FO workings). Doesn't it say Snyder fired a bunch of FO people right away and there was bad blood immediately? Not sure what's happened within the FO ever since other than I remember hearing about sporadic firings. On to the coaches I mean jeez is there a good story there outside Gibbs?

But I guess it's more the big picture looking forward. Why, other than money, would a real smart football guy (manager or coach) looking to win come work for Snyder? Some of us think Snyder had the best d coordinator in football on the payroll just two years ago...and a guy who was respected by more or less the whole roster. Snyder and Vinny kicked Williams to the curb and then we heard BS reports out of Redskin park Williams had disrespected Gibbs. Believable? Really? C'mon gimme a break Snyder just took the low road and started an ugly rumor, probably because he lacks the maturity and humility to just part ways w/o somehow getting in the last shot So again, why would anybody want to work for that when there are pretty nice opportunities throughout the NFL every year?

[SolidSnake84]

Ahhh yes, the old disrespecting Gibbs Rumor. I heard many people from within that organization say that it was just that. A Rumor. It's laughable that Gibbs wouldnt have known that Williams was going to put 10 men on the field in honor of Sean....

Jim Fassell claims that he and Gregg didn't get the job because they didn't feel that Jason Campbell should be the starting QB. Jim Fassell has since confirmed this in many interviews that he did following the HC search...Williams hasn't spoken about it that I know of. Think about it. Both guys were probably fine with the idea that Jim Zorn would be the offensive coordinator. But when both guys balked at the idea of having Campbell be cemented as the starter, it threw a wrench in the FO's plans. They clearly wanted a coach that could develop Campbell as a quality starter.

For what it's worth, Neither Fassell nor Gibbs, nor Gregg Williams would have made Campbell find "it". Like the great Peyton Manning said, you either get it or you don't, when it comes to playing QB.

But it's true what Goat says. How can you expect anybody respectable to come and work for Snyder/Cerrato at this point? I say if he gets rid of Vinny, then the situation would seem alot better...

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Daseal

If I weren't so lazy, I'd go to some of the pre-preseason threads and look at who here is complaining about Vinny that was talking about all the talent we have on the team a few months ago. I don't care for Vinny, more because he's too much of a yes man. His personnel decisions haven't been atrocious, in my opinion. He made some mistakes (real lack of OL depth) but every team has weak points. We also have a QB and a RB that make them look even worse than they are at times. When it comes down to it, this team needs a strong GM that is a buffer between coach and owner.

I don't think Vinny has been terrible at acquiring talent. He hasn't been stellar either, but we don't have a team devoid of talent. He didn't strike out on many high draft picks. He's the golden boy in the 7th round.

I think Snyder, and to a lesser extent, Vinny, are getting beat up a bit more than they should. For me, this team has issues, but not the type of issues we've seen so far. With our cup cake schedule losing more than 2 is pathetic. Even that 2nd one should never happen with the teams we played. Zorn is not a head coach in this league, at least not yet. Most of my anger is pointed in his direction. He seems to be getting a pass, and I don't understand why.

Well said Daseal. Yes, Vinny has made mistakes but his biggest failure is that almost nobody likes him. His biggest success is that one person, one very important person, does.

With the expected improved playing time for Thomas and Davis during the second half (and hopefully Kelly) it will be interesting to see what the reaction will be if they play well.

For me, I think Vinny has to go because he has made some major flaws. For one thing, hiring Zorn is all on him. And his lack of people skills is not productive to the overall success of the team. All that said though, I think he will have left the team with some solid pieces.

[skinsfan_nn]

Originally Posted by Daseal

If I weren't so lazy, I'd go to some of the pre-preseason threads and look at who here is complaining about Vinny that was talking about all the talent we have on the team a few months ago. I don't care for Vinny, more because he's too much of a yes man. His personnel decisions haven't been atrocious, in my opinion. He made some mistakes (real lack of OL depth) but every team has weak points. We also have a QB and a RB that make them look even worse than they are at times. When it comes down to it, this team needs a strong GM that is a buffer between coach and owner.

I don't think Vinny has been terrible at acquiring talent. He hasn't been stellar either, but we don't have a team devoid of talent. He didn't strike out on many high draft picks. He's the golden boy in the 7th round.

I think Snyder, and to a lesser extent, Vinny, are getting beat up a bit more than they should. For me, this team has issues, but not the type of issues we've seen so far. With our cup cake schedule losing more than 2 is pathetic. Even that 2nd one should never happen with the teams we played. Zorn is not a head coach in this league, at least not yet. Most of my anger is pointed in his direction. He seems to be getting a pass, and I don't understand why.

I'll buy that, Zorn is not head coaching material in this league at this point. Probably never will be.

I certainly think there is enough blame to go around, primarily Dan/Vinny before Coach Gibbs got out the door they were destroying 4 years of putting a team and coaching staff together. Zorn's part of the problem, but not on the top of my list. He didn't hire himself. The guy was in over his head right outta the gates. And was aloud to bring in Sherm Smith another guy, with no play calling or offensive coordinator experience. Who thought that was a recipe for success.

You have to look at Vinny and/or Dan for letting this disaster unfold to begin with. Remember we had a staff in place,and Coach Gibbs predecessor was supposedly already on board Gregg Williams and an experienced offensive coordinator in Al Saunders. But who couldn't work with the man that had been hand picked by Dan's idol..?

Furthermore, we had a #4 ranked defense last season, not to bad even with a weak pass rush/ minimal sacks,turnovers/picks. Don't get me wrong if they would have addressed the O-Line, Big Al= good move, DHall=I wasn't and still am not crazy about the move, Orakpo=Should be a good player for a long time if played correctly. But the O-Line NEEDS were the most obvious NEED of this team bar none going into this season and were neglected. So what did Vinny and Co. do to address this MAJOR AREA of concern,Dockery. One move that was worth anything. That's on Vinny!

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake84

Ahhh yes, the old disrespecting Gibbs Rumor. I heard many people from within that organization say that it was just that. A Rumor. It's laughable that Gibbs wouldnt have known that Williams was going to put 10 men on the field in honor of Sean....

Jim Fassell claims that he and Gregg didn't get the job because they didn't feel that Jason Campbell should be the starting QB. Jim Fassell has since confirmed this in many interviews that he did following the HC search...Williams hasn't spoken about it that I know of. Think about it. Both guys were probably fine with the idea that Jim Zorn would be the offensive coordinator. But when both guys balked at the idea of having Campbell be cemented as the starter, it threw a wrench in the FO's plans. They clearly wanted a coach that could develop Campbell as a quality starter.

For what it's worth, Neither Fassell nor Gibbs, nor Gregg Williams would have made Campbell find "it". Like the great Peyton Manning said, you either get it or you don't, when it comes to playing QB.

But it's true what Goat says. How can you expect anybody respectable to come and work for Snyder/Cerrato at this point? I say if he gets rid of Vinny, then the situation would seem alot better...

I don't remember hearing anything about Snyder and Williams specifically disagreeing on JC's future as a reason for Williams getting fired. And what you said about Williams being ok w/ Zorn as OC doesn't jive w/ my memory either. I thought Williams had a great deal of respect for Saunders and wanted him to run the offense, but obviously Snyder and Vinny wanted Saunders gone pronto.

That said you're probably right Jason likely wouldn't have been the immediate starter if Williams had got his way. The offense looked better than it had for a very long time (and ever since btw) IMO when Collins took over in '07, after Jason got hurt. Basically that's the last time I remember our offense being fun to watch. Saunders would have likely wanted his guy in there to start the '08 season, allowing JC to work into the scheme more slowly. Personally I think it would have worked i.e. the team would be better off today had the ownership taken that path.

[SmootSmack]

Donovan being named COO of the Redskins and overseeing stadium operations takes away one of the jobs I thought Cerrato might end up having

[mlmdub130]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I don't remember hearing anything about Snyder and Williams specifically disagreeing on JC's future as a reason for Williams getting fired. And what you said about Williams being ok w/ Zorn as OC doesn't jive w/ my memory either. I thought Williams had a great deal of respect for Saunders and wanted him to run the offense, but obviously Snyder and Vinny wanted Saunders gone pronto.

That said you're probably right Jason likely wouldn't have been the immediate starter if Williams had got his way. The offense looked better than it had for a very long time (and ever since btw) IMO when Collins took over in '07, after Jason got hurt. Basically that's the last time I remember our offense being fun to watch. Saunders would have likely wanted his guy in there to start the '08 season, allowing JC to work into the scheme more slowly. Personally I think it would have worked i.e. the team would be better off today had the ownership taken that path.

does this mean you think collins should have been the starter the past two years? if so i have a bone to pick, i've NEVER been a big jc supporter but i have said he is not the #1 problem and could easily make 5 to 6 teams in the nfl better if he was on the team. Collins is just a name for fans to yell when they get pissed that jc isn't making plays, he is in no way a starting qb in the nfl, i think that was proven two weeks ago

[GusFrerotte]

Originally Posted by mlmdub130

does this mean you think collins should have been the starter the past two years? if so i have a bone to pick, i've NEVER been a big jc supporter but i have said he is not the #1 problem and could easily make 5 to 6 teams in the nfl better if he was on the team. Collins is just a name for fans to yell when they get pissed that jc isn't making plays, he is in no way a starting qb in the nfl, i think that was proven two weeks ago

Young padewa I once thought as you, but JC is degressing if anything as a starter. During the preseason Cutler crap I thought JC could in fact leave the team to become a starter for say Oakland, KC, TB, etc, but now I don't think too many teams are going to put a premium on him other than a backup.

[SmootSmack]

I could see Campbell in Arizona or Seattle next year, depending on certain things of course

[mlmdub130]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

Young padewa I once thought as you, but JC is degressing if anything as a starter. During the preseason Cutler crap I thought JC could in fact leave the team to become a starter for say Oakland, KC, TB, etc, but now I don't think too many teams are going to put a premium on him other than a backup.

i'm not saying he is a great qb all i am sayin is he isn't the #1 problem, and to say he could start on 5 or so teams in the nfl and make them better might sound good but doesn't carry that much weight, i'm talkin oakland, tampa, st. louis, clevland, kansas city, j'ville, as bad as he is here he could easily ad one win to each of their schedules

[mooby]

I'd be completely happy if Vinny just went with a different job in the organization. As long as it wasn't involved in personnel or drafting. More like the business side, not the football side. Heck, give him a job with a title that doesn't mean shit just to make him feel better.

But honestly I feel like it won't matter if Snyder doesn't change his ways either. Meaning like, I keep hearing these things about Vinny is Snyder's cover boy, aka Snyder makes Vinny do the dirty work so Vinny gets blamed for Snyder being too meddlesome.

I just want a GM that will serve as a buffer between DS and whatever head coach the GM hires. Someone who won't be afraid to stand up to DS and convince him if he is making the wrong decision. I'm not entirely confident DS would hire a GM like that but I'd love if that happened. I know some of the blame is on Vinny (hiring Jim Zorn was his move) but it's not all his fault.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by mlmdub130

does this mean you think collins should have been the starter the past two years? if so i have a bone to pick, i've NEVER been a big jc supporter but i have said he is not the #1 problem and could easily make 5 to 6 teams in the nfl better if he was on the team. Collins is just a name for fans to yell when they get pissed that jc isn't making plays, he is in no way a starting qb in the nfl, i think that was proven two weeks ago

Hmmm I guess I could be more clear. Collins was Saunders student/backup QB for something like 10 years. Is Collins a tremendous talent w/ superior physical ability? Far from it. But he's very bright and dedicated and in Saunders offense he led the offense effectively in the time he was given, so I think logically Saunders would have liked to see Collins continue to lead while JC watched and learned how the system is supposed to run. I believe Tripp has said at one point or another Collins wasn't statistically fantastic (similar to Jason's stats); however what I believe is Collins was more effective finishing drives and finding his targets as the field gets so short in the redzone. In the current offensive system, if you can call it that, it's hard to say whether Collins would fare better than Jason over say a 6 game stretch. Probably doesn't matter...

[mlmdub130]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Hmmm I guess I could be more clear. Collins was Saunders student/backup QB for something like 10 years. Is Collins a tremendous talent w/ superior physical ability? Far from it. But he's very bright and dedicated and in Saunders offense he led the offense effectively in the time he was given, so I think logically Saunders would have liked to see Collins continue to lead while JC watched and learned how the system is supposed to run. I believe Tripp has said at one point or another Collins wasn't statistically fantastic (similar to Jason's stats); however what I believe is Collins was more effective finishing drives and finding his targets as the field gets so short in the redzone. In the current offensive system, if you can call it that, it's hard to say whether Collins would fare better than Jason over say a 6 game stretch. Probably doesn't matter...

exactly, bottom line this year 6-10 is for us wishful thinkers