Ukraine mega thread

[over the mountain]

Putin is becoming a big pain but I cant help but think that all our proxy wars with former USSR nations that border current Russia (attempting nato missile defense system in Poland and Turkey, steering Ukraine pro EU/West, totally destabilizing Iraq, sanctioning Iran) is the reason.

We have effed with Russia repeatedly with countries right at their door step and Putin is right to say the US sits across the pond and treats other countries like lab rats in political experiments.

I despise Putin but we are serious international jerks.

I also think Putin was very dumb to act so unilaterally and aggressively and the US and EU can really capitalize on this opportunity. No one is standing with Russia on this.

Russian economy has lost over 75 billion on Monday alone.

USA can now justify some of their clandestine political interference.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

Putin is becoming a big pain but I cant help but think that all our proxy wars with former USSR nations that border current Russia (attempting nato missile defense system in Poland and Turkey, steering Ukraine pro EU/West, totally destabilizing Iraq, sanctioning Iran) is the reason.

We have effed with Russia repeatedly with countries right at their door step and Putin is right to say the US sits across the pond and treats other countries like lab rats in political experiments.

I despise Putin but we are serious international jerks.

I also think Putin was very dumb to act so unilaterally and aggressively and the US and EU can really capitalize on this opportunity. No one is standing with Russia on this.

Russian economy has lost over 75 billion on Monday alone.

USA can now justify some of their clandestine political interference.

None of our actions that you describe are "proxy wars" by us.

Please don't blame any of what Putin is doing to Ukraine on us. He did the same thing to Georgia: "Russify" a region over time, then split that territory off into a client state friendly to Russia.

We aren't treating other countries as lab experiments. A better analogy would be that Putin is playing Go with/on Eastern Europe.

[RedskinRat]

[Chico23231]

Crimea is lost. Unfortunately, the EU nor the US saw this coming and when we did we were too slow to act. Still think Russia may not stop at Crimea, Putin is a serious threat to the rest of the Ukraine and quite frankly, Im surprised we are not seeing this and reacting.

Any type of sanctions are slow moving and you cant just flick a switch unless you are throughly prepared. Obama, the US government and our intelligent community werent prepared for Russia to invade.

To the rest of the world, this is an embarrassment for the Europeans and especially the US. I think if we should respond at least with something else besides costs or threats.

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Crimea is lost. Unfortunately, the EU nor the US saw this coming and when we did we were too slow to act. Still think Russia may not stop at Crimea, Putin is a serious threat to the rest of the Ukraine and quite frankly, Im surprised we are not seeing this and reacting.

Any type of sanctions are slow moving and you cant just flick a switch unless you are throughly prepared. Obama, the US government and our intelligent community werent prepared for Russia to invade.

To the rest of the world, this is an embarrassment for the Europeans and especially the US. I think if we should respond at least with something else besides costs or threats.

How it is an embarrassment?
We are not protectors of the world (despite the world police argument and stuff).
We didn't let any bad thing happen.
Russia has been frog marching the Crimea since WWII anyway.
We don't owe the Crimeans anything.

[over the mountain]

I dont think this is an embarrassment to the US. (syria is another story). Engaging in a knee jerk military response would be costly, divisive and ultimately produce the same result as applying sanctions.

i like to think "what would china do"? China would use this act of aggression to further isolate russia and damage their economy for the next 2 decades.

I think this is an embarrassment to Putin. He over-played his hand and is not sure how to untie his hands while saving face.

Does the benefits of Crimea (or however you spell it) outweigh the long term damage this will do to the russian economy?

i think the business sector of russia is pissed. a govt conducted poll of russians found 80% disapproved of the invasion.

this could be a huge benefit to the US if we play our cards right.

[RedskinRat]

What OTM said.

Unfortunately, the brains trust at 1600 will turn it into an epic fail.

[Chico23231]

People forgetting the treaty we signed with Russia and the Ukraine.

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

People forgetting the treaty we signed with Russia and the Ukraine.

What does that mean?
You want the US military in The Ukraine?
You want a shooting war with Russia?
You're talking about guaranteeing the Ukraines sovereignty?
We would have to counter-invade the Crimea to do that.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

What does that mean?
You want the US military in The Ukraine?
You want a shooting war with Russia?

I dont want a shooting war with anybody

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

I dont want a shooting war with anybody

Well I doubt they will leave if we ask nicely.

And since they are the third largest energy producer in the world any sanctions wont do bupkiss.

So we are left with diplomacy..........

[NC_Skins]

I remember many of these same people talking about how we were helping the people in Iraq by "liberating" them and giving them freedom. Guess freedom and liberating isn't so noble in Ukraine.

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

I remember many of these same people talking about how we were helping the people in Iraq by "liberating" them and giving them freedom. Guess freedom and liberating isn't so noble in Ukraine.

Nice dig.....but your comparison sucks.
Going up against Saddams military vs Putins is vastly different.
Unless you're interested in seeing 10's of thousands of Americans die in the Ukraine. Not to mention the nukes.
I'm pretty sure the aggressor has nukes this time.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

Nice dig.....but your comparison sucks.
Going up against Saddams military vs Putins is vastly different.
Unless you're interested in seeing 10's of thousands of Americans die in the Ukraine. Not to mention the nukes.
I'm pretty sure the aggressor has nukes this time.

Oh, so we only bully those with less weaponry? I guess that's how we rate people's scale of "freedom".


Even if we did go to war with Russia, they wouldn't use nukes. I don't think any country will ever use them after seeing the aftermath of our 2 atomic bombs.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

I remember many of these same people talking about how we were helping the people in Iraq by "liberating" them and giving them freedom. Guess freedom and liberating isn't so noble in Ukraine.

Its wierd isnt it? A treaty is a commitment to the international community, not just the nation. We told the Ukranians we, along with the UK and (maybe others, unsure) we will defend them. But yet we let a criminal (ukraine president) escape to Russia, who then invades the Ukraine because a criminal asked them.