2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I wonder if being thrown into the mix right as the season started (for Gabbert) and within the season (Ponder) affected these guys. I mean, I am sure being the starter from day 1 helped Dalton and Newton (although Newton's talent cannot be compared to these other guys).

Ponder has been as good as Dalton. Dalton has benefited from a bit of what Alex Smith has this year: level of competition is low, so the difference between "bad rookie" and "good rookie" means you are winning games, as opposed to just losing competently. Cam's been in a league of his own among rookies, but has no defense and plays a lot of playoff teams.

I think the only reason Gabbert is playing at all this year is because Garrard was damaged goods. When you look at the closest Gabbert college comparables, only Josh Freeman was his team's primary starter his first year. Most sat until at least this point of the season. To think Gabbert has been exposed as a poor prospect simply because he has had to play before he was ready is something I just wouldn't agree with.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Ponder has been as good as Dalton. Dalton has benefited from a bit of what Alex Smith has this year: level of competition is low, so the difference between "bad rookie" and "good rookie" means you are winning games, as opposed to just losing competently. Cam's been in a league of his own among rookies, but has no defense and plays a lot of playoff teams.

I think the only reason Gabbert is playing at all this year is because Garrard was damaged goods. When you look at the closest Gabbert college comparables, only Josh Freeman was his team's primary starter his first year. Most sat until at least this point of the season. To think Gabbert has been exposed as a poor prospect simply because he has had to play before he was ready is something I just wouldn't agree with.

And for some reason they had no running game in the first part of the season (I think Cam Newton WAS their running game).

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

And for some reason they had no running game in the first part of the season (I think Cam Newton WAS their running game).

The Jordan Gross and Jeff Otah injuries really hurt them in that regard but with returning healthy players (Jon Beason, Jeff Otah, James Anderson, Chris Gamble) and a decent draft in which I think they will draft Morris Claiborne, watch out for the Panthers in 2012.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689

The Jordan Gross and Jeff Otah injuries really hurt them in that regard but with returning healthy players (Jon Beason, Jeff Otah, James Anderson, Chris Gamble) and a decent draft in which I think they will draft Morris Claiborne, watch out for the Panthers in 2012.

I think the odd team out next season in the NFC South will be the Bucs. The Saints should be the top team next season again (unless something happens) and both the Falcons and Panthers will be fighting for the #2 spot.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

My official position is that it's far too early to judge anyone from the 2011 QB class right now. I think Ponder looks a lot better than Gabbert at this point, but I won't be concerned about Gabbert unless he's still JaMarcusing it at this point next year. Then Jacksonville has issues. We used to have a word to describe Blaine Gabbert's performance, and that word was "rookie."

You need rushers like Kerrigan in this league just as much as you need franchise quarterbacks, so I will never struggle to grasp the Redskins decision. Me personally? I would have kept Andre Carter and been more patient with him and drafted a QB in 2011. But then we'd be looking at having to address that hole on the defense anyway.

A big thing for me was that as soon as we passed on Ponder, I would have taken T.J. Yates down in the draft (maybe even in the second round) because he pretty much was Christian Ponder in college, just a year older. And while you would be totally shocked how much of a difference a year makes in terms of total career value (I think it's something like 30-40%), a fourth or a fifth round pick on Yates would have been a bargain. Same with Pat Devlin or Scott Tolzien, who both went undrafted. All of this assumes the Redskins took Ryan Mallett off their draft board, because let's face it, the Redskins under Shanahan have never spent a high pick on a guy with the dreaded 'character issues.' Or something.

Well in evaluating Gabbert it really has nothing to do with his production, I see a guy with a major case of the flinches. Any time pressure is in his face he seems to either throw off of his back foot or completely lose his fundamentals to just unload it. His numbers on 3rd down and red zone in college weren't good at all either so there is a significant question about how he handles stress and pressure. That's not really something that can be coached. I've seen that behavior closely compared to David Carr and Joey Harrington, not good company to be in.

As much as Carter looks great in NE this year, he has shown a couple of times (SF & Wash) that despite his ability and effort, he's not a 3-4 guy. There's nothing wrong with that, some guys just are poor fits for that system. Kerrigan gives us a guy younger and better suited for that position.

I'm with you on the young QB thing but I think the choice not to draft Mallett had more to do with system compatibility concerns than it did character issues.

[Mechanix544]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

But the argument is totally nullified by the fact that the Redskins had McNabb on the roster after the lockout ended. He was traded because he was perceived as a limiting factor by a team that wanted to turn the keys over to Rex Grossman and/or John Beck.

There's no conspiracy theory to be had here. Mike Shanahan thought Rex Grossman and John Beck could win games for him in 2011. He thought they could win enough games to win the NFC East. And the only part he was right about is that it's only going to take 9 or 10 wins to take the East.

It's one thing to not have a lot of confidence in a rookie Blaine Gabbert or a rookie Christian Ponder or a rookie Ryan Mallett, the three players who the Redskins passed over at no. 10 overall to trade down to 16. History may prove Mike Shanahan right on that one. It's never going to look fondly though on the guys he actually staked his reputation to. Heck, Shanahan couldn't even tell the difference in quality between the two guys he handpicked. Even the veterans on the Redskins had that figured out. The idea that there werent better options out there to be had over the last two seasons is absurd. Of course there were.

We haven't fixed any "real" problems in two years, so how would we know how much a good coaching staff could fix in one year? Maybe changing the coaching staff brings in the perfect guy to win in the NFL at this time. Or maybe it starts over the rebuilding clock. Either way, what's the downside?

I disagree, to an extent. On the whole, our team is finally getting younger. Just prior to the 2010 season, our average age was 27.97, which ranked tops in the NFL at the conclusion of the 53 man rosters. Prior to 2011, that figure changed to 26.6, 1.37 years younger, and down to 11th in the league. You also have to figure that this draft is going to produce our starting quarterback, and hopefully one or two other starters who are going to step in right away.

Our team age is steadily going down, which gives the franchise a bit of flexibility when it comes down to free agency, as well as a sense of optimism and comaraderie, knowing that the team is chock full of young talent, not "has been" mercs looking for a payday. So in at least one aspect the Shanahan era hasnt been a total loss. This next year (2012) will determine the future of the organization, as well as Mike Shanahan.

[KI Skins Fan]

I look at this whole QB situation from the perspective that the Skins are a team in the second year of a total rebuild under Shanny. Sure, Shanny wouldn't admit to rebuilding and Bruce Allen even trotted out some tired old rhetoric by saying "the future is now". I mean, you didn't really believe that b.s., did you?

I think that saying or not saying certain things was done with the thought of not demotivating the players who had to play the games in 2011. I also think the comment that Shanny made about staking his reputation on Beck and Grossman was a case of extreme "coach speak" that slipped out while he was trying to defend the fact that the Skins didn't take a QB in the 2011 draft. He probably wished he hadn't said that the instant it came out of his mouth.

If the Skins didn't like any of the QB prospects in the 2011 draft then I see no reason why they should have drafted one since they knew full well that they were only in year two of a complete rebuild. The QB could wait until the 2012 draft.

They decided instead to trade down repeatedly and pick up as many good prospects as they could in 2011. And I think the strategy might work out for them. Firstly, I think we may have acquired some good prospects in Kerrigan, Jenkins, Hankerson, Helu. and possibly a couple of others. Secondly, I think most of us would agree that this figures to be a better QB class in 2012. Now, if the Skins fail to land a top QB in this draft, then I would say that management may not know what they're doing in regard to the QB position (with a few f-bombs tossed in).

I'm aware that some NFL executives like the idea of taking a young QB, albeit late, in nearly every draft. I'm not convinced of that as a strategy, but certainly the Skins could have done that in the last draft. They didn't. Nevertheless, it might not be a bad idea for the Skins to do that in this draft because there are a lot of decent QB prospects in this class. A young starter + veteran backup (Rex) + a young developmental QB would be a good thing, IMO.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

I'm aware that some NFL executives like the idea of taking a young QB, albeit late, in nearly every draft. I'm not convinced of that as a strategy, but certainly the Skins could have done that in the last draft. They didn't. Nevertheless, it might not be a bad idea for the Skins to do that in this draft because there are a lot of decent QB prospects in this class. A young starter + veteran backup (Rex) + a young developmental QB would be a good thing, IMO.

Who besides Luck and maybe Barkley are said to be instant starters at the pro level? If we're lucky enough to land Barkley maybe he could start right away next year...but my word that's a tremendous amount of pressure to put on a 22 yr old lad!! D.C. Media. Mike and Kyle. A horde of desperate fans.

I think that's risky as hell and would be much more confident in a savvy, even surly lol, vet starting while our big gamble grows into the world, league, offense awhile. Problem is...who's that vet?! Probably Rex is that guy because we're not likely to spend our first pick and big FA money on QBs at the same time. Plus that new QB would be learning the system from the beginning (just like the rookie), so we'd be at an even bigger risk than with Grossman.

Moral of the story, Grossman is our QB for the time being...as...long...as...Mike's...here!!

I have more confidence in at least three available veteran coaches currently unemployed and at least that many coordinators who are probably a big part of the NFL through the rest of my lifetime.

[SBXVII]

Thought I'd put this up

2011-12 bowl schedule - ESPN

RGIII- Valero Alamo Bowl- Dec. 29th, 9pm.
L.Jones- Insight Bowl- Dec. 30th, 10pm.
A.Luck- Tostitos Fiesta Bowl- Jan. 2nd, 8:30pm.

As far as I can tell these are the only 3 QB's from the original 5 from the first thread started;
1.Luck
2.L.Jones
3.Barkley
4.Folles
5.RGIII

Are there others we should be looking at (in regards to QB's) and what Bowl are they playing in so I can mark my calender?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Thought I'd put this up

2011-12 bowl schedule - ESPN

RGIII- Valero Alamo Bowl- Dec. 29th, 9pm.
L.Jones- Insight Bowl- Dec. 30th, 10pm.
A.Luck- Tostitos Fiesta Bowl- Jan. 2nd, 8:30pm.

As far as I can tell these are the only 3 QB's from the original 5 from the first thread started;
1.Luck
2.L.Jones
3.Barkley
4.Folles
5.RGIII

Are there others we should be looking at (in regards to QB's) and what Bowl are they playing in so I can mark my calender?

Ryan Tannehill-Meineke Car Care Dec. 31

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Who besides Luck and maybe Barkley are said to be instant starters at the pro level? If we're lucky enough to land Barkley maybe he could start right away next year...but my word that's a tremendous amount of pressure to put on a 22 yr old lad!! D.C. Media. Mike and Kyle. A horde of desperate fans.

I think that's risky as hell and would be much more confident in a savvy, even surly lol, vet starting while our big gamble grows into the world, league, offense awhile. Problem is...who's that vet?! Probably Rex is that guy because we're not likely to spend our first pick and big FA money on QBs at the same time. Plus that new QB would be learning the system from the beginning (just like the rookie), so we'd be at an even bigger risk than with Grossman.

Moral of the story, Grossman is our QB for the time being...as...long...as...Mike's...here!!

I have more confidence in at least three available veteran coaches currently unemployed and at least that many coordinators who are probably a big part of the NFL through the rest of my lifetime.

I think that Luck and Barkley are the complete list of QB prospects who could start right away. That's why I think we may trade up for Barkley. If St. Louis finishes with the second worst record, we've got a chance to land him.

I want the Skins to keep Rex as a backup and I think he's a solid backup. Rex may even start the season next year if our (supposed) rookie phenom isn't quite ready. But, by now, we should all recognize that he's not likely to be an NFL starter much longer.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Ryan Tannehill-Meineke Car Care Dec. 31

Thanks.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Well in evaluating Gabbert it really has nothing to do with his production, I see a guy with a major case of the flinches. Any time pressure is in his face he seems to either throw off of his back foot or completely lose his fundamentals to just unload it. His numbers on 3rd down and red zone in college weren't good at all either so there is a significant question about how he handles stress and pressure. That's not really something that can be coached. I've seen that behavior closely compared to David Carr and Joey Harrington, not good company to be in.

As much as Carter looks great in NE this year, he has shown a couple of times (SF & Wash) that despite his ability and effort, he's not a 3-4 guy. There's nothing wrong with that, some guys just are poor fits for that system. Kerrigan gives us a guy younger and better suited for that position.

I'm with you on the young QB thing but I think the choice not to draft Mallett had more to do with system compatibility concerns than it did character issues.

I'm not impressed with Gabbert at all. Looks like Jacksonville made a bad pick there.

[skinsfaninok]

Luck should shine against OK ST

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I'm not impressed with Gabbert at all. Looks like Jacksonville made a bad pick there.

No - they made a good pick but it's looking like they got a bad player.

See, this why picking QB's is tricky. At the time, it looked like quite a coup for Jax. Remember, on many boards Gabbert was the number 2 QB in the draft. In fact, as I recall, not many expected him to last to the 10th pick. Jax had a QB in place and expected to be able to let Gabbert sit for a year.

So, they aggressively moved up to get the best QB available and with a plan put him in a situation to succeed. Then sh** happened and he had to start sooner than expected. AND, in doing so, it turns out that all his prospective "pros" - great physical attributes, good intangibles, smart - appear to be, so far, outweighed by all the speculative "cons" - moving from spread offense, not experienced with pre-snap reads, etc.

Meanwhile, Cinci, takes the best WR on the board and waits to see who's available. In doing so, they end up with Andy Dalton (a guy we were rumoured to be after) and now they have a pass-catch duo that looks like they could be set for the next 10 years.

With that in mind, let's just wait and see where the chips fall.