2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)

[SFREDSKIN]

One thing I worry about Shanahan is that he would pass Barkley and go for Landry Jones if he decides to enter the draft. I smell a Ryan Leaf vs Manning scenario. Redirect Notice

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

One thing I worry about Shanahan is that he would pass Barkley and go for Landry Jones if he decides to enter the draft. I smell a Ryan Leaf vs Manning scenario. Redirect Notice

I want to say: "well you gotta trust Shanahan and his decision" but then I remember that he went with Rex and Beck this season.

[mbedner3420]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I want to say: "well you gotta trust Shanahan and his decision" but then I remember that he went with Rex and Beck this season.

I really felt they went with rex and beck because of the lockout. They felt they wouldn't have time coach up a rookie or FA. All bets off if there was no lockout. To me, that decision made sense. No one could have predicted how well Newton and Dalton are doing.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by mbedner3420

I really felt they went with rex and beck because of the lockout. They felt they wouldn't have time coach up a rookie or FA. All bets off if there was no lockout. To me, that decision made sense. No one could have predicted how well Newton and Dalton are doing.

Agreed, long term we are no worse off from the Rex/Beck decision than we would have been if we brought someone else in via free agency. My only issue is that there hasn't been a developmental QB brought in via the draft in either of the previous 2 seasons.

Anyone who has watched Gabbert or Ponder can't really be too upset we didn't pick one of them over Kerrigan. Gabbert looks like he may be out of the league in 3 years, he looks AWFUL!

[SkinzWin]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Agreed, long term we are no worse off from the Rex/Beck decision than we would have been if we brought someone else in via free agency. My only issue is that there hasn't been a developmental QB brought in via the draft in either of the previous 2 seasons.

Anyone who has watched Gabbert or Ponder can't really be too upset we didn't pick one of them over Kerrigan. Gabbert looks like he may be out of the league in 3 years, he looks AWFUL!

I agree it was a bad decision to not have a developmental QB. However, I feel that the reason for this was Shanny had a win now mentality when he got here, and when that didn't happen, he went into rebuild mode and didn't like anyone he saw last year so chose to improve other badly performing positions.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by SkinzWin

I agree it was a bad decision to not have a developmental QB. However, I feel that the reason for this was Shanny had a win now mentality when he got here, and when that didn't happen, he went into rebuild mode and didn't like anyone he saw last year so chose to improve other badly performing positions.

I think there is a big difference between getting McNabb (which costed the team a 2nd rounder) and going after some of the free agents that were available this past offseason. I don't think anyone was expecting MS to trade for a veteran QB this offseason, but I just find it hard to believe that Rex and Beck were the best options out there.

Granted, that there is always the possibility that maybe none of these vet QBs wanted to come here. But I think the starting QB position was wide open here in Washington, and I find it hard to believe that the likes of Matt Leinart, Vince Young, and possibly Tavaris Jackson would not have wanted to compete for a starting position. I'm not saying that these guys would have meant playoffs for us, but I think they are slightly better than the two QBs we have on roster.

In the end, many things could have happened, but I just hope MS' decision to go with these two guys were truly the result of the lockout and what not, and not an actual decision by the coaching staff to depend on these guys. We will never know, since MS would never go out and said that he had to settle for these guys.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Agreed, long term we are no worse off from the Rex/Beck decision than we would have been if we brought someone else in via free agency. My only issue is that there hasn't been a developmental QB brought in via the draft in either of the previous 2 seasons.

Anyone who has watched Gabbert or Ponder can't really be too upset we didn't pick one of them over Kerrigan. Gabbert looks like he may be out of the league in 3 years, he looks AWFUL!

I wonder if being thrown into the mix right as the season started (for Gabbert) and within the season (Ponder) affected these guys. I mean, I am sure being the starter from day 1 helped Dalton and Newton (although Newton's talent cannot be compared to these other guys).

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I wonder if being thrown into the mix right as the season started (for Gabbert) and within the season (Ponder) affected these guys. I mean, I am sure being the starter from day 1 helped Dalton and Newton (although Newton's talent cannot be compared to these other guys).

Ponder has been as good as Dalton. Dalton has benefited from a bit of what Alex Smith has this year: level of competition is low, so the difference between "bad rookie" and "good rookie" means you are winning games, as opposed to just losing competently. Cam's been in a league of his own among rookies, but has no defense and plays a lot of playoff teams.

I think the only reason Gabbert is playing at all this year is because Garrard was damaged goods. When you look at the closest Gabbert college comparables, only Josh Freeman was his team's primary starter his first year. Most sat until at least this point of the season. To think Gabbert has been exposed as a poor prospect simply because he has had to play before he was ready is something I just wouldn't agree with.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Ponder has been as good as Dalton. Dalton has benefited from a bit of what Alex Smith has this year: level of competition is low, so the difference between "bad rookie" and "good rookie" means you are winning games, as opposed to just losing competently. Cam's been in a league of his own among rookies, but has no defense and plays a lot of playoff teams.

I think the only reason Gabbert is playing at all this year is because Garrard was damaged goods. When you look at the closest Gabbert college comparables, only Josh Freeman was his team's primary starter his first year. Most sat until at least this point of the season. To think Gabbert has been exposed as a poor prospect simply because he has had to play before he was ready is something I just wouldn't agree with.

And for some reason they had no running game in the first part of the season (I think Cam Newton WAS their running game).

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Agreed, long term we are no worse off from the Rex/Beck decision than we would have been if we brought someone else in via free agency. My only issue is that there hasn't been a developmental QB brought in via the draft in either of the previous 2 seasons.

Anyone who has watched Gabbert or Ponder can't really be too upset we didn't pick one of them over Kerrigan. Gabbert looks like he may be out of the league in 3 years, he looks AWFUL!

My official position is that it's far too early to judge anyone from the 2011 QB class right now. I think Ponder looks a lot better than Gabbert at this point, but I won't be concerned about Gabbert unless he's still JaMarcusing it at this point next year. Then Jacksonville has issues. We used to have a word to describe Blaine Gabbert's performance, and that word was "rookie."

You need rushers like Kerrigan in this league just as much as you need franchise quarterbacks, so I will never struggle to grasp the Redskins decision. Me personally? I would have kept Andre Carter and been more patient with him and drafted a QB in 2011. But then we'd be looking at having to address that hole on the defense anyway.

A big thing for me was that as soon as we passed on Ponder, I would have taken T.J. Yates down in the draft (maybe even in the second round) because he pretty much was Christian Ponder in college, just a year older. And while you would be totally shocked how much of a difference a year makes in terms of total career value (I think it's something like 30-40%), a fourth or a fifth round pick on Yates would have been a bargain. Same with Pat Devlin or Scott Tolzien, who both went undrafted. All of this assumes the Redskins took Ryan Mallett off their draft board, because let's face it, the Redskins under Shanahan have never spent a high pick on a guy with the dreaded 'character issues.' Or something.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

My official position is that it's far too early to judge anyone from the 2011 QB class right now. I think Ponder looks a lot better than Gabbert at this point, but I won't be concerned about Gabbert unless he's still JaMarcusing it at this point next year. Then Jacksonville has issues. We used to have a word to describe Blaine Gabbert's performance, and that word was "rookie."

You need rushers like Kerrigan in this league just as much as you need franchise quarterbacks, so I will never struggle to grasp the Redskins decision. Me personally? I would have kept Andre Carter and been more patient with him and drafted a QB in 2011. But then we'd be looking at having to address that hole on the defense anyway.

A big thing for me was that as soon as we passed on Ponder, I would have taken T.J. Yates down in the draft (maybe even in the second round) because he pretty much was Christian Ponder in college, just a year older. And while you would be totally shocked how much of a difference a year makes in terms of total career value (I think it's something like 30-40%), a fourth or a fifth round pick on Yates would have been a bargain. Same with Pat Devlin or Scott Tolzien, who both went undrafted. All of this assumes the Redskins took Ryan Mallett off their draft board, because let's face it, the Redskins under Shanahan have never spent a high pick on a guy with the dreaded 'character issues.' Or something.

Well in evaluating Gabbert it really has nothing to do with his production, I see a guy with a major case of the flinches. Any time pressure is in his face he seems to either throw off of his back foot or completely lose his fundamentals to just unload it. His numbers on 3rd down and red zone in college weren't good at all either so there is a significant question about how he handles stress and pressure. That's not really something that can be coached. I've seen that behavior closely compared to David Carr and Joey Harrington, not good company to be in.

As much as Carter looks great in NE this year, he has shown a couple of times (SF & Wash) that despite his ability and effort, he's not a 3-4 guy. There's nothing wrong with that, some guys just are poor fits for that system. Kerrigan gives us a guy younger and better suited for that position.

I'm with you on the young QB thing but I think the choice not to draft Mallett had more to do with system compatibility concerns than it did character issues.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Well in evaluating Gabbert it really has nothing to do with his production, I see a guy with a major case of the flinches. Any time pressure is in his face he seems to either throw off of his back foot or completely lose his fundamentals to just unload it. His numbers on 3rd down and red zone in college weren't good at all either so there is a significant question about how he handles stress and pressure. That's not really something that can be coached. I've seen that behavior closely compared to David Carr and Joey Harrington, not good company to be in.

As much as Carter looks great in NE this year, he has shown a couple of times (SF & Wash) that despite his ability and effort, he's not a 3-4 guy. There's nothing wrong with that, some guys just are poor fits for that system. Kerrigan gives us a guy younger and better suited for that position.

I'm with you on the young QB thing but I think the choice not to draft Mallett had more to do with system compatibility concerns than it did character issues.

I'm not impressed with Gabbert at all. Looks like Jacksonville made a bad pick there.

[SkinzWin]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I want to say: "well you gotta trust Shanahan and his decision" but then I remember that he went with Rex and Beck this season.

Not directed specifically at you, you just brought up the thought in my mind, but I get tired of so many people belittling Shanny for having Rex/Beck as the QB combo this year. If he didn't like the guys available in the draft, then he didn't like them. If he didn't think any FA's were a good fit, then why would he get them. Especially after the bad taste left in his mouth from going out and getting another FA that doesn't pan out the year before in McNabb. You know how all over him people and the media would be?

We have so many problems he can't fix them all in one year. We got some good FA's and some good draft picks. I am confident we will address QB this year in the draft. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SkinzWin

Not directed specifically at you, you just brought up the thought in my mind, but I get tired of so many people belittling Shanny for having Rex/Beck as the QB combo this year. If he didn't like the guys available in the draft, then he didn't like them. If he didn't think any FA's were a good fit, then why would he get them. Especially after the bad taste left in his mouth from going out and getting another FA that doesn't pan out the year before in McNabb. You know how all over him people and the media would be?

We have so many problems he can't fix them all in one year. We got some good FA's and some good draft picks. I am confident we will address QB this year in the draft. Rome wasn't built in a day.

But the argument is totally nullified by the fact that the Redskins had McNabb on the roster after the lockout ended. He was traded because he was perceived as a limiting factor by a team that wanted to turn the keys over to Rex Grossman and/or John Beck.

There's no conspiracy theory to be had here. Mike Shanahan thought Rex Grossman and John Beck could win games for him in 2011. He thought they could win enough games to win the NFC East. And the only part he was right about is that it's only going to take 9 or 10 wins to take the East.

It's one thing to not have a lot of confidence in a rookie Blaine Gabbert or a rookie Christian Ponder or a rookie Ryan Mallett, the three players who the Redskins passed over at no. 10 overall to trade down to 16. History may prove Mike Shanahan right on that one. It's never going to look fondly though on the guys he actually staked his reputation to. Heck, Shanahan couldn't even tell the difference in quality between the two guys he handpicked. Even the veterans on the Redskins had that figured out. The idea that there werent better options out there to be had over the last two seasons is absurd. Of course there were.

We haven't fixed any "real" problems in two years, so how would we know how much a good coaching staff could fix in one year? Maybe changing the coaching staff brings in the perfect guy to win in the NFL at this time. Or maybe it starts over the rebuilding clock. Either way, what's the downside?

[Mechanix544]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

But the argument is totally nullified by the fact that the Redskins had McNabb on the roster after the lockout ended. He was traded because he was perceived as a limiting factor by a team that wanted to turn the keys over to Rex Grossman and/or John Beck.

There's no conspiracy theory to be had here. Mike Shanahan thought Rex Grossman and John Beck could win games for him in 2011. He thought they could win enough games to win the NFC East. And the only part he was right about is that it's only going to take 9 or 10 wins to take the East.

It's one thing to not have a lot of confidence in a rookie Blaine Gabbert or a rookie Christian Ponder or a rookie Ryan Mallett, the three players who the Redskins passed over at no. 10 overall to trade down to 16. History may prove Mike Shanahan right on that one. It's never going to look fondly though on the guys he actually staked his reputation to. Heck, Shanahan couldn't even tell the difference in quality between the two guys he handpicked. Even the veterans on the Redskins had that figured out. The idea that there werent better options out there to be had over the last two seasons is absurd. Of course there were.

We haven't fixed any "real" problems in two years, so how would we know how much a good coaching staff could fix in one year? Maybe changing the coaching staff brings in the perfect guy to win in the NFL at this time. Or maybe it starts over the rebuilding clock. Either way, what's the downside?

I disagree, to an extent. On the whole, our team is finally getting younger. Just prior to the 2010 season, our average age was 27.97, which ranked tops in the NFL at the conclusion of the 53 man rosters. Prior to 2011, that figure changed to 26.6, 1.37 years younger, and down to 11th in the league. You also have to figure that this draft is going to produce our starting quarterback, and hopefully one or two other starters who are going to step in right away.

Our team age is steadily going down, which gives the franchise a bit of flexibility when it comes down to free agency, as well as a sense of optimism and comaraderie, knowing that the team is chock full of young talent, not "has been" mercs looking for a payday. So in at least one aspect the Shanahan era hasnt been a total loss. This next year (2012) will determine the future of the organization, as well as Mike Shanahan.