Will Jason Campbell return?

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by DBUCHANON101

Trent Green? wasnt he with Al Saunders when he was havin pro bowl seasons??
Gannon was good because he was a true student of the game, that guy could write the playbook for you. he put the time in.
and it wasnt hard for Johnson to win the SB with that BUC D. they scored like 21pts in that game vs the Raiders.

so Campbell isn't putting the time in? that's a pretty ridiculous statement. and anyhoo, Gannon only had 2-3 good seasons. remember how god awful he was in his brief stay here? i cant believe im sticking up for Campbell. to me, this is the year he either does it, or ends up in arena football

[DBUCHANON101]

Ok, bottom line we missed the playoffs. JC started makin up for lost time with the picks he threw to end the season.

[SC Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by Monksdown

I disagree with you obviously on the validity of the statistics i've pulled. Anyone can "cherry pick" statistics and make them reveal something that may not be there. Yes, i did use the statistics i chose to use. On the other side of that coin, anyone can tear them down by continuing to break down the figures ad nauseum.

Bottom line. Little steps don't equal big steps. I want big steps.

Fair enough. But this year is the one you want to look at for "big" progress. Second year in a system, second year with Zorn as QB coach, and hopefully will get at least limited production from the 2008 draft class. This year is the "make or break" year.

Plus, as I tried to show above, if you take your exact same metrics and apply them to everybody's favorite Super Bowl winning QB you get basically the same outcome. And if it is statistical "progress" you are looking for then you don't get that with Roethlisberger's first three seasons either. He didn't make a "big jump" statistically until year four and then dropped back down (regressed to the mean?) last year.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by irish

These numbers are nice but the only thing that really matters is that one QB lead his team to a SB win while the other hasnt won anything in his 5 years in the league.

Last I checked, football was a team sport. That D in Pitt had a lot more to do with them winning the SB than Big Ben.

[Monksdown]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

Fair enough. But this year is the one you want to look at for "big" progress. Second year in a system, second year with Zorn as QB coach, and hopefully will get at least limited production from the 2008 draft class. This year is the "make or break" year.

Plus, as I tried to show above, if you take your exact same metrics and apply them to everybody's favorite Super Bowl winning QB you get basically the same outcome. And if it is statistical "progress" you are looking for then you don't get that with Roethlisberger's first three seasons either. He didn't make a "big jump" statistically until year four and then dropped back down (regressed to the mean?) last year.

That's the part i'm worried about. Quarterbacks make WR's better, and the offensive line makes a QB better. So my chain of logic is this. Does Derrick Dockery solve our OL issues from last year(one guy goes down and we don't have adequate depth)?

Are we hinging Jason's success on his abilities, or the progress of our often injured 2nd round draft class of last year.

I think QB's that make minimal progress every year need substantial help from the cast around them. And i don't see that improvement on offense. Therefore, i can't predict success.

[DBUCHANON101]

That D in Pitt had a lot more to do with them winning the SB than Big Ben.

The D scored the winning TD??? The D got them there. and they played well most of the game but AZ scored the go ahead td late and Ben led his team down the field for the win.

[Paintrain]

Hey Monksdown and DBuchanon101, I'm interested in hearing your take on this:
What would you call a QB going into his third full season as a starter with career numbers of a completion percentage below 60%, right around 200 YPG, 28 TD and 31 INT, passer rating in the low-mid 70's and a winning percentage below .500?

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by DBUCHANON101

That D in Pitt had a lot more to do with them winning the SB than Big Ben.

The D scored the winning TD??? The D got them there. and they played well most of the game but AZ scored the go ahead td late and Ben led his team down the field for the win.

Obviously Ben threw the winning TD pass, but the D put 7 on the board and was the strength of that team throughout the season and playoffs. Those that make the claim that Ben "carried" or "led" the Steelers to the SB win are typical fans who over-emphasize the QB, when the team wins all the credit goes to the QB, when they lose it's the QB's fault.

[DBUCHANON101]

its the league we play in.. its all on the QB

the pats D slowed the greatest show on turf. Adam V kicked the winning fg and all the cred goes to Brady.

[Monksdown]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Hey Monksdown and DBuchanon101, I'm interested in hearing your take on this:
What would you call a QB going into his third full season as a starter with career numbers of a completion percentage below 60%, right around 200 YPG, 28 TD and 31 INT, passer rating in the low-mid 70's and a winning percentage below .500?

Someone with deceptively poor statistics at the beginning of their career that turned out to be a stud???

[SC Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by Monksdown

That's the part i'm worried about. Quarterbacks make WR's better, and the offensive line makes a QB better. So my chain of logic is this. Does Derrick Dockery solve our OL issues from last year(one guy goes down and we don't have adequate depth)?

Are we hinging Jason's success on his abilities, or the progress of our often injured 2nd round draft class of last year.

I think QB's that make minimal progress every year need substantial help from the cast around them. And i don't see that improvement on offense. Therefore, i can't predict success.

My solution does not make for good discussion board material, but my argument would be that you have to wait for this year to make a real judgment one way or the other. And the thing is, you really have nothing really to lose. If Campbell fails then his contract is up and you let him walk. If he succeeds you resign him (and if it is an uncapped year he is an RFA anyway). That is why all the trade talk with Cutler and Sanchez made no sense, except for the fact that DS thinks this team is a perennial Super Bowl contender and can win "right now." The rest of us know a little bit better and realize there are substantial potential deficiencies with this team, most notably age and depth (another reason it made no sense to execute a big time trade for a QB).

The major problem with Campbell at this point, and what most detractors are circling around with their criticism of him, is his lack of willingness to take chances with his throws. The physical tools are there, he can make the throws, he is actually an accurate passer (and has improved each year), so the question becomes whether the tentative part of his game is correctable? That is what we have to find out this year. Same system, so he should have greater confidence. If he simply lacks the athletic arrogance (which you can see in an extreme form with Cutler, and is what separates Roethisberger from Campbell despite the statistical comparability) to take some chances then he does have a limited ceiling. If he can become more agressive then he can be successful. So that is what we have to find out in 2009 ... and we do so with very little risk.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by Monksdown

Someone with deceptively poor statistics at the beginning of their career that turned out to be a stud???

How are they 'deceptively poor' stats? Are they poor or not? At that point in his career how would you classify him? If he were the QB of your team what would you be advocating to be done with him? More patience, trade, outright release?

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by DBUCHANON101

its the league we play in.. its all on the QB

the pats D slowed the greatest show on turf. Adam V kicked the winning fg and all the cred goes to Brady.

That's the problem with typical fans, they place all the blame on the QB. That ain't how football works. True, a Brady/Manning type can take over a game, but he still needs protection and receivers who can make plays. Manning struggled early last year when his OL struggled, Brady struggled in the SB against the Giants becuase his OL was getting handled.

Campbell struggled in the 2nd half last year because of poor OL play and some very good D's we faced, not becuase he just magically started to suck. He's gotten better every year and his QB rating shows that.

I can't wait until mid-season to call you guys out, of course just like early last season all the JC haters came out after the Giants game and then disappeared until he struggled later in the season.

[Monksdown]

Of course they are poor. And this is where you name drop some big stud on me. Some anomaly amongst the 100's of other qb's with numbers like that, that never succeeded. So go ahead, i'll play along.

Yes, those numbers are terrible. I'd move the quarterback out.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

That's the problem with typical fans, they place all the blame on the QB. That ain't how football works. True, a Brady/Manning type can take over a game, but he still needs protection and receivers who can make plays. Manning struggled early last year when his OL struggled, Brady struggled in the SB against the Giants becuase his OL was getting handled.

Campbell struggled in the 2nd half last year because of poor OL play and some very good D's we faced, not becuase he just magically started to suck. He's gotten better every year and his QB rating shows that.

I can't wait until mid-season to call you guys out, of course just like early last season all the JC haters came out after the Giants game and then disappeared until he struggled later in the season.

Ain't that the truth. Kinda like Cowgirl fans who talk a lot of crap before the season, and then once we kick their ass, they disappear.