Marching Orders... Interesting Points

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Well that was my question, whether the fans would be patient about this. I mean during the 6-2 start, people's expectations went through the roof despite the fact that we were barely winning games and lost to the Rams. Yes winning cures everything, but people did not see the problems that would eventually lead to 2-6 in the second half of the season. I'm not sure the if the FO has come out and said that we're making a run to the SB. I know when Saunders was brought in, the team and the players set their expectations really high and were talking about the Superbowl. Of course they fell flat on their face and finished with a losing record. I think ever since that season the team has been cautious about expectations, and honestly everyone but Redskins fans expected an 8-8 or less out Zorn.

I think you make a very good point in regards to how Gibbs decision to go with older players is affecting us now. People talk about how we traded picks, did not build through the draft, and went after flashy FAs. Well I think the age factor has to do with the decisions that Gibbs made in working with only old players. Instead of working with a young Patrick Ramsey, he opted to bring in Brunell. I don't think Gibbs was the "let's build through draft" type of coach. And now we're stuck with old players that get hurt all the time, don't contribute much, but cost the team a lot of $$ (and will cost more $$ if they are cut).

I think there is enough blame to go around. I do not think you can blame one person. Gibbs did not spend a 2nd round pick for a 34 y.o. DE.
Gibbs did not get only one starter out of an entire 2008 draft class.
There are too many cooks in the kitchen already, you can not tell who gets the final say anyway.
We need a strong qualified leader on the FO. We do not have one. We have two partners.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

I agree with you that if we re-build, in the short team we will lose more than we are now. But you talk like we have been consistantly a winning team. We have not. In the last 16 years we have not had a single season that we have won more than 10 games. In the last 16 years we have only had 5 seasons that we have been over .500.
Take a look below, we have not been a winning team.

2000 8 - 8
2001 8 - 8
2002 7 - 9
2003 5 - 11
2004 6 - 10
2005 10 - 6
2006 5 - 11
2007 9 - 7
2008 8 - 8

Well when I talked about rebuilding I was thinking more about the team since 2004 when Gibbs came back. Although since 2000, we've only had four losing seasons, three .500, and only two winning seasons. We have been sort stuck in a mediocre middle.

When Gibbs was brought in 2004, he was expected to win right away, and as I mentioned, Gibbs was not the type to develop young players. Since 2005 we've seen moderate success, but not enough to get the team to the next level. Honestly, last offseason there should have been a sense of rebuilding after Gibbs left. If we want to start rebuilding this year, the question is whether the fans or the team would allow Zorn to have another 8-8 or worst year.

[freddyg12]

Best offseason thread in a long time. thanks to all that have posted.

Here are my thoughts/observations for what it's worth:

1) While I don't want to get into a "this is how you build a team, look at them.." debate, I think JLC's article & his constant hammering of a few facts is well taken. Football starts in the trenches. If your lines suck you'd better have exceptional people behind them. Our DBs were a case in point on the positive side this year, while our O was on the negative.

It's really quite simple, and anyone who's listened to coaches over the years knows that if you're lacking in the trenches it will catch up to you.

2) As already noted, a bigger problem is the LACK of draft picks, which I think JLC should note as much as the lack of linemen. Draft picks have not been valued by this team, and despite talk to the contrary, the J. Taylor trade shows that (I thought it was a good idea, but a 2nd is very high, not to mention a 6th too).

3) Gibbs had never coached in the era of cap & undrafted free agency till he came back in 04 & I think he overestimated the value of older players v. the impact on the cap long-term. Still, he got the ship on course IMO & drafted a future QB (Not to mention gave us something to get excited about).

4) I said it last year & someone else pointed it out earlier when they cited Kiper's statement about not doing it all in one year; maybe Vinny does have a strategy: 1) draft wr's who normally take a few years to develop, then 2) draft o linemen who can play right away, 3) draft defensive players as needed. In the meantime, sign FAs to plug some holes.

Following this, in 2010 Thomas, Kelly & Davis might be solid playmakers, we'll have a few new faces on the O line, & the D will be younger. The logic in last year's draft is that the wr's would take a couple years at least, thus getting them to produce when JC and the rest of the O starts to gell. Defensively, more high picks have been used on that side of the ball over the past 5 years, so the approach there might be less systematic.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

JLC really irked me with his post. Drafting linemen isnt enough-- you have to draft GOOD linemen. JLC cited a few playoff teams and tried to correlate their success with the fact that they drafted linemen high 2-3 times as often as us...

what JLC forgot to mention is that teams that are consistently bad have also drafted 2-3 tims as many linemen as us.

The teams that have been continuously successful nearly every year (New England, Philly, Indy, and Pittsburg) all have 3 things in common:

1) For the most part, they keep their draft picks and they draft well. Most of the time, if they trade a draft pick, its to acquire more draft picks... not a vet player over 28.
2) They rarely make a big splash in free agency and DRAFT WELL. It doesnt matter what position they draft (as JLC implies), its that they use their picks wisely. Players taken in rounds 1-4 generally start or play substantially in their first year. Players taken in later rounds contribute on special teams.
3) They have great quarterbacks and great coaches and keep the same system in tact for years. Just keeping any system in tact is not good enough. it has to be a good system. Same goes for a QB.

We are no where near being in a position to follow in the footsteps of teams like new england, philly, indy, etc. If Vinny uses the next two drafts to focus primarily on the lines, its not going to make this team any better, in the same way it hasnt made detroit any better for two reasons:

1) We don't have a GM who is talented enough to draft quality players, find a franchise quarterback, and select quality coaches.

2) Because our GM is not competent enough to make the correct decisions mentioned above, our owner is not going to be patient enough to stick with any one thing. our owner deludes himself in thinking that things will really get better every 2-4 years with a new man in charge.

[SouperMeister]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

We are the oldest team in the NFl and we have one of the highest payrolls. We have to stop bringing in old FA's. We have to stop renegotiating contracts of old players just to get below the cap, get rid of the old over paid players. Stop trading high draft picks for 34 year old FA's. But we always revert back to these bad practices because it is less painful. We build this team to win today, not to win for tomorrow.

Both Baltimore and Tennessee had painful rebuilding years after their Super Bowl appearances in 2000 and 1999, respectively. I would rather suffer through a 3 win season if it meant clearing the books of overpaid vets, while laying a strong young foundation with an extended window to compete for a championship. With Snyderato's current formula, the best we can ever hope for is a 9-10 win season that results in a wild card, and an early exit from the post-season. I don't see a long range plan for success when we continually trade draft picks for aging vets, as if we are only a player away from championship caliber. Snyder is delusional in his belief that we are on the cusp of anything great with this formula.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by SouperMeister

Both Baltimore and Tennessee had painful rebuilding years after their Super Bowl appearances in 2000 and 1999, respectively. I would rather suffer through a 3 win season if it meant clearing the books of overpaid vets, while laying a strong young foundation with an extended window to compete for a championship. With Snyderato's current formula, the best we can ever hope for is a 9-10 win season that results in a wild card, and an early exit from the post-season. I don't see a long range plan for success when we trade for aging vets as if we are a player away from championship caliber. Snyder is delusional in his belief that we are on the cusp of anything great.

I agree with you 100% here. There's no pain-free way to turn this franchise around. Snyder has done everything he can to avoid truly fixing this team. instead he continues to put bandaids on a wound when a heart transplant is needed, condemning us to eternal mediocrity.

We need to get rid of every veteran who's play is declining if they are "cutable." Due to salary cap ramifications, guys like Jon Jansen, Randy Thomas, and Clinton Portis are uncutable. Guys like Springs, Griffin, Daniels, Washington, Rabach, and Taylor are.

Now, if we can't resign Hall and/or decide to trade Rogers, arguments could be made for keeping Springs another year... but not if it prevents us from signing someone who could help this team in the long-term. We need to start building for the future, and not just the next year. Unfortunately, I think we arent going to start bulding until next year. in all likelyhood, Zorn and possibly Cerrato, will be gone after this season and the new regime will be the one most likely to commit to the big picture - If Snyder could give someone like Cowher or Holmgren total control, it would satisfy his desire for a big name and they would have enough "clout" to ensure Snyder gave them atleast 3 years. With that type of security, a guy like Cowher or Holmgren could afford to make temporary sacrifices with the goal of having a good, young, rising team ready by the 3rd year.

[SmootSmack]

How often lately have we traded our picks for aging veterans? Kendall and Taylor? And the Taylor trade wouldn't have been made if we didn't lose two DEs in one day.

[irish]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I agree with you 100% here. There's no pain-free way to turn this franchise around. Snyder has done everything he can to avoid truly fixing this team. instead he continues to put bandaids on a wound when a heart transplant is needed, condemning us to eternal mediocrity.

We need to get rid of every veteran who's play is declining if they are "cutable." Due to salary cap ramifications, guys like Jon Jansen, Randy Thomas, and Clinton Portis are uncutable. Guys like Springs, Griffin, Daniels, Washington, Rabach, and Taylor are.

Now, if we can't resign Hall and/or decide to trade Rogers, arguments could be made for keeping Springs another year... but not if it prevents us from signing someone who could help this team in the long-term. We need to start building for the future, and not just the next year. Unfortunately, I think we arent going to start bulding until next year. in all likelyhood, Zorn and possibly Cerrato, will be gone after this season and the new regime will be the one most likely to commit to the big picture - If Snyder could give someone like Cowher or Holmgren total control, it would satisfy his desire for a big name and they would have enough "clout" to ensure Snyder gave them atleast 3 years. With that type of security, a guy like Cowher or Holmgren could afford to make temporary sacrifices with the goal of having a good, young, rising team ready by the 3rd year.

The Skins dont need a big name head coach. What they need is coaching consistency and firing Zorn wont do that. In addition, Cowher isnt coming to DC because DS wont give him total control and Cowher wont put up with DS's undercutting of the coach's authority. There was an interesting article in Sports Illustrated a couple weeks ago about how in the recent NFL coaching history, hiring big name retreads isnt the way to go.

Oh yea, Vinny aint going anywhere no matter what happens.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by SouperMeister

Both Baltimore and Tennessee had painful rebuilding years after their Super Bowl appearances in 2000 and 1999, respectively. I would rather suffer through a 3 win season if it meant clearing the books of overpaid vets, while laying a strong young foundation with an extended window to compete for a championship. With Snyderato's current formula, the best we can ever hope for is a 9-10 win season that results in a wild card, and an early exit from the post-season. I don't see a long range plan for success when we continually trade draft picks for aging vets, as if we are only a player away from championship caliber. Snyder is delusional in his belief that we are on the cusp of anything great with this formula.

Outstanding post.

Our old and expensive team did not make the playoffs. These are three very bad things for a professional team when they come together.

The Redskins are at a very important cross in the road. The decisions the FO make this offseason can handcuff the team for years to come. We are in the unenviable position of having few draft picks and being millions over next years salary cap. The team might be tempted to trade future picks for 2009 picks. They might be tempted to extend and back load contracts of older players.
This is a very interesting offseason.

[Bill B]

One point that maybe some of the posters can give insight - with the Hogs of the glory years how many of them were drafted compared to being acquired via trade/free agency? If I remember correctly weren't some of the hogs actually undrafted pickups? Also, I remember when the Skins traded Jay Schroder for Jim Lachey - when that was announced I was estatic and knew we got a steal when we got an all pro lineman.

Now unfortunately in today's salary cap era I don't think you will ever see a trade like the Lachey one, but I think one area we need to focus on is to not only stockpile picks in hoping to find a dominant lineman, but we also should dedicate some resources to scouting and making sure if there are any undrafted lineman that have a chance to make an impact. Maybe just maybe we luck out on one or two linemen and solidy the rest through high draft picks and maybe one or two free agent pickups.

Also - as far as having patience through rebuilding seasons - I think a lot of us who are also Washington Capital fans saw what Ted Leonsis had to endure with the Caps but did not lose faith in the ownership. The Caps tried the free agency, big spending route by signing guys like Jagr to massive contracts but it didn't work out, so Leonsis understood that in order to create a long lasting quality team the best way is through the draft and adding a free agent or two. So he shed all his high priced talent - even acquiring some additional picks by doing so, and let his GM build his team through the draft. Leonsis understood that there would be some rough seasons but he also knew that if he let his GM stockpile young talent and then when the team got better they could add a good free agent or two (like Matty had mentioned in this thread earlier on how the Skins should go) than your chances to build a consistent winner get better and better as long as you have a good GM and get out of his way.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Bill B

One point that maybe some of the posters can give insight - with the Hogs of the glory years how many of them were drafted compared to being acquired via trade/free agency? If I remember correctly weren't some of the hogs actually undrafted pickups? Also, I remember when the Skins traded Jay Schroder for Jim Lachey - when that was announced I was estatic and knew we got a steal when we got an all pro lineman.

Now unfortunately in today's salary cap era I don't think you will ever see a trade like the Lachey one, but I think one area we need to focus on is to not only stockpile picks in hoping to find a dominant lineman, but we also should dedicate some resources to scouting and making sure if there are any undrafted lineman that have a chance to make an impact. Maybe just maybe we luck out on one or two linemen and solidy the rest through high draft picks and maybe one or two free agent pickups.

Also - as far as having patience through rebuilding seasons - I think a lot of us who are also Washington Capital fans saw what Ted Leonsis had to endure with the Caps but did not lose faith in the ownership. The Caps tried the free agency, big spending route by signing guys like Jagr to massive contracts but it didn't work out, so Leonsis understood that in order to create a long lasting quality team the best way is through the draft and adding a free agent or two. So he shed all his high priced talent - even acquiring some additional picks by doing so, and let his GM build his team through the draft. Leonsis understood that there would be some rough seasons but he also knew that if he let his GM stockpile young talent and then when the team got better they could add a good free agent or two (like Matty had mentioned in this thread earlier on how the Skins should go) than your chances to build a consistent winner get better and better as long as you have a good GM and get out of his way.

If I'm correct Heyer was undrafted and a project when he came here.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Bill B

One point that maybe some of the posters can give insight - with the Hogs of the glory years how many of them were drafted compared to being acquired via trade/free agency? If I remember correctly weren't some of the hogs actually undrafted pickups? Also, I remember when the Skins traded Jay Schroder for Jim Lachey - when that was announced I was estatic and knew we got a steal when we got an all pro lineman.

http://www.thewarpath.net/506536-post7.html

Now unfortunately in today's salary cap era I don't think you will ever see a trade like the Lachey one, but I think one area we need to focus on is to not only stockpile picks in hoping to find a dominant lineman, but we also should dedicate some resources to scouting and making sure if there are any undrafted lineman that have a chance to make an impact. Maybe just maybe we luck out on one or two linemen and solidy the rest through high draft picks and maybe one or two free agent pickups.[/QUOTE]

Scouting is a concern I think I brought up two or three years ago, and I believe they actually made a lot of changes at the lower levels last spring/summer so we'll see if it pays off.

Also - as far as having patience through rebuilding seasons - I think a lot of us who are also Washington Capital fans saw what Ted Leonsis had to endure with the Caps but did not lose faith in the ownership. The Caps tried the free agency, big spending route by signing guys like Jagr to massive contracts but it didn't work out, so Leonsis understood that in order to create a long lasting quality team the best way is through the draft and adding a free agent or two. So he shed all his high priced talent - even acquiring some additional picks by doing so, and let his GM build his team through the draft. Leonsis understood that there would be some rough seasons but he also knew that if he let his GM stockpile young talent and then when the team got better they could add a good free agent or two (like Matty had mentioned in this thread earlier on how the Skins should go) than your chances to build a consistent winner get better and better as long as you have a good GM and get out of his way.

McPhee is phenomenal, and props to Leonsis. But he also "benefitted" from a lockout that sort of forced his hand.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Bill B

One point that maybe some of the posters can give insight - with the Hogs of the glory years how many of them were drafted compared to being acquired via trade/free agency? If I remember correctly weren't some of the hogs actually undrafted pickups? .....

IMO when you sign an undrafted rookie, that is as good as drafting them. If you pick another teams cut player that to me is a free agent.
10 Hogs were original Redskins
4 were not.


Drafted Hogs
Mark May drafted 1st round
Russ Drimm drafted 3rd round (what a steal)
R. McKenzie drafted 11th round
Ed Simmons drafted 6th round
Mark Schlreth drafted 10th round
Don Warren drafted 4th round

Undrafted Rookie Signings
Jeff Bostic
Joe Jacoby
George Stark
Fred Dean

Came from Other teams
Jim Lachey
R.C. Thielemann
Ken Huff
Rick Doc Walker

Either way the Beathard/Casserly FO did a great job of player evaluations.

[Bill B]

Thanks Smootsmack - it is unbelievable that we got so many of the Hogs and defensive lineman as late as you pointed out. Also - interesting to see that some of the picks you pointed out were beyond the 7th rounds, so in todays world that would be undrafted!

I think one thing to also consider - I remember that before the current system was in place their was the Plan B option and if I remember correctly the Skins were masters at stockpiling talent via Plan B and also just prepping players on the practice squad until they were ready to contribute.

[sportscurmudgeon]

1. The Over The Hill Gang was here under the regime of George Allen and not Joe Gibbs.


2. For those of you who argue that two dynamic wide receivers are needed in order to make a playoff run, please consider that the Redskins have now gone 32 straight games with the starting tandem of receivers as Santana Moss, Antwaan Randle-El and James Thrash. If anyone thinks that any of those three compare in any meaningful way to Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin, then you are probably ingesting an illegal substance.


3. It will be difficult for the team to "commit to the draft" in 2009 and use it to get younger and get stronger. The team has a total of 4 draft picks this year. They might get more if they get some compensatory picks, but other than that...


4. For the team to have the 2009 draft make meaningful contributions to getting younger, they will have to do something they did not do much of last year and that is to draft guys who can actually be put in uniform on Sundays and be allowed on the field for something other than Suicide Squad duty on kickoff coverage. Drafting 4 "projects" won't help all that much; they pretty much drafted a half-dozen of those last year.


5. For those who think that Danny Boy will read these kinds of stories/reports and have some kind of epiphany experience, please ask yourself why he might do that now when the same kinds of stories have been written for him to read and internalize for at least the last 5 years and maybe the last 8 years. To make this change in philosophy, Danny Boy will have to - wait for it - admit he has been wrong for the last ten years and that his entire approach to running the Redskins has been a failure. Please do not hold your breath waiting for that to happen; it would definitely be dangerous to your health.


6. I for one will NOT be surprised to see Joe Gibbs return to the Redskins yet one more time in some capacity - - perhaps even head coach once again - - if the Skins do not make the playoffs in either of the next two seasons.