Ocho Stinko: "I want to be traded before the draft"

[GoSkins!]

I am very divided on this. On one hand, I think our offense could prove to be very hard to deal with if CJ joined the WR group. Many opposing times teams would have to leave Moss in single coverage with the 2nd CB so they could double CJ (or vise-versa). Short of having the defensive line that the Giants have I don't know how I would defend it.

On the other hand, you would be throwing Zorn under the bus. If the offense performs well who gets the credit. CJ is the kind of guy that will take it for himself. If the offense performs bad, who here believes that CJ won't start placing blame?

I have come to the conclusion that if you are going to hire a young head coach, you need to not hire a young head case.

[htownskinfan]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Maybe I'm being naive to it all but I really don't think it's about money. I think he wants to see the Bengals really get serious about winning. Improve the defense, get rid of the real problem players. I thought cutting Chris Henry was a message in the right direction. But didn't they have two trades they made rejected by the league? That's not a sign of a good franchise.

In my opinion, I think if CJ is traded it won't be until after June 1 and it will be to a team we're not thinking about right now. Someone like the Bucs.

Yes I do think your being naive,if it isnt about the money,then do you think CJ will be happy being traded to a "winning" franchise under his current contract? or his he going to want a new deal from the team hes dealt to? If he's willing to play under his current contract then he's believable about it being about winning,but I think he's going to want a new deal

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by GoSkins!

I am very divided on this. On one hand, I think our offense could prove to be very hard to deal with if CJ joined the WR group. Many opposing times teams would have to leave Moss in single coverage with the 2nd CB so they could double CJ (or vise-versa). Short of having the defensive line that the Giants have I don't know how I would defend it.

On the other hand, you would be throwing Zorn under the bus. If the offense performs well who gets the credit. CJ is the kind of guy that will take it for himself. If the offense performs bad, who here believes that CJ won't start placing blame?

I have come to the conclusion that if you are going to hire a young head coach, you need to not hire a young head case.

They can share the wealth. We needed a better offensive scheme. We got the West Coast offense. We need another WR to compliment Moss. Johnson can be that guy. The only way that Chad would be able to take full credit is if nobody else on the offense has any production.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by KB24

There's a HUGE difference between the Patriots organization and that of the Redskins. Bellicheat, oh I'm sorry, Belichick knows how to keep players in line and has no problem disciplining anyone should they start cutting up. They also have an owner who stays out of the way and lets the REAL football people do their jobs without his interference. The Redskins organization has proven itself to be dysfunctional and, despite its recent improvements player acquisition-wise, I just don't think it's qualified to deal with a personality like Johnson's. I have no doubts about what he can do on an offense. My fear is, because Danny LOVES him so much, Johnson most likely will come in with the attitude of, "**** you, I can do anything I want." Then, when something happens in the locker room or on the field and Chad isn't happy about it and starts whining, Danny will move heaven and earth for him to keep him happy, even if Chad is wrong. Plus, what we'd have to give up to get him in terms of draft picks (AGAIN!!!!) and salary cap space when we have bigger problems with an aging and injury-prone offensive line, only one proven back-up to the offensive line, questions in the secondary with Shawn Springs' age and Carlos Rogers' health, and no consistent pass-rusher outside of Andre Carter, adding Johnson with all of his talent won't make us an automatic Super Bowl contender. A lot of you may not like reading this sentence, but the Redskins are far from being a player away from Super Bowl-contender status. Getting Johnson is nothing more than a fantasy-football move and won't benefit us in the long term.

First off, I wish I had been online last night, but Bravo to Smootsmack and Ruheskins for some great posts.

Now, to respond to this post: Chad Johnson has been in the league for 7 years now. In 7 years time, can you please list for me all of the terrible things that this guy has done to his team? I mean, apparently he needs the discipline that only Belicheck can dish out because he's been in trouble with the law......um......zero times. Has violated the league substance abuse policy......um......zero times. Has been suspended by the NFL......um......zero times. Has gotten into an argument with his coaches, what?....a couple times? In 7 Years? And that makes him an "ASSHOLE"? Please, if I'm missing something, I'm dying to see the laundry list of all the terrible things he's done to destroy his team in his career.

From a football perspective (I know, perish the thought), what I do know is that in his 7 years this is what he's done: Chad Johnson. Taking out his rookie year he's averaged 1,339 yards per year, has had at least 1,100 yards per year in the last 6, and hasn't finished with less than 1,274 in the last 5. Over the last six years he's averaged 8 TDs per year, and hasn't had less than 7 in the last 5 years (and during this time, he's been in trouble with the law or suspended by the league, how many times was it again?......but I digress). He's stayed healthy and has played in every single game for his team for the last 6 years running. Now, from a purely football perspective, please tell me another receiver to wear a Skins Jersey since probably the Posse that can come even close to that. I love Santana Moss, but take a look: Santana Moss, the two just don't compare. To trivialize the impact that CJ would have on any team he goes to is simply allowing your personal feelings to get in the way of any football judgment you may have. You might not like him or want him, but denying his production or the impact he could have?.....history just doesn't support the argument.

Now, if you are firmly in the camp that thinks there is no way we should spend our first rounder on a WR, then ok, I guess the draft picks really are valuable. But looking at the history of young WRs and how many wasted first rounders there have been on "sure thing," "guaranteed superstar" WRs (see Charles Rogers, Peter Warrick, Mike Williams, Michael Westbrook, Desmond Howard, Rod Gardner, etc, etc, etc), I'd trade our first rounder and another mid-rounder in a heartbeat to have what we already know has been a Pro Bowl caliber WR for the last 5-6 years running (as opposed to someone who Mel Kiper "projects" to be a great NFL WR before he even steps foot on an NFL practice field). Personally, I hope we draft DE in the first round, but even if we luck out and get a good to great DE at #21 in the draft, it still wouldn't have the effect that having CJ would have IMO. You mention our thin and old O-line and secondary and lack of a pass-rusher, and I agree those are all areas of concern. So what do you think about our WR corp? Are you seriously going to tell me that our WR group is solid and you're happy to have another year of Moss (who has played 16 games twice in his career) and Randle El (who is a natural #3 WR, not a 2) as our #1 and #2 with who behind them? Seriously, if one of those guys goes down, who is going to step in and step up? Do you really feel all warm and fuzzy about that group and only have questions about the other areas on this team? Let's face it, CJ would make for a huge improvement in the quality and depth of our WR corp (which is crucial to the development of a young QB like JC........I've felt sorry for him more times than I can count when our WRs were so decimated that James Thrash, Reche Caldwell, and Keenan McCardell were the only guys he had to throw to).

Alright, I think I've gone on long enough (and hopefully I've made my points).

[KB24]

Originally Posted by GoSkins!

I have come to the conclusion that if you are going to hire a young head coach, you need to not hire a young head case.

This sentence is a HUGE reason why we need to pass on Stinko. If things don't go well and Chad starts whining, it's going to have a ripple effect, starting with a man who's in his first head coaching job and trickle on down, poisoning the team.

[KB24]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

First off, I wish I had been online last night, but Bravo to Smootsmack and Ruheskins for some great posts.

Now, to respond to this post: Chad Johnson has been in the league for 7 years now. In 7 years time, can you please list for me all of the terrible things that this guy has done to his team? I mean, apparently he needs the discipline that only Belicheck can dish out because he's been in trouble with the law......um......zero times. Has violated the league substance abuse policy......um......zero times. Has been suspended by the NFL......um......zero times. Has gotten into an argument with his coaches, what?....a couple times? In 7 Years? And that makes him an "ASSHOLE"? Please, if I'm missing something, I'm dying to see the laundry list of all the terrible things he's done to destroy his team in his career.

From a football perspective (I know, perish the thought), what I do know is that in his 7 years this is what he's done: Chad Johnson. Taking out his rookie year he's averaged 1,339 yards per year, has had at least 1,100 yards per year in the last 6, and hasn't finished with less than 1,274 in the last 5. Over the last six years he's averaged 8 TDs per year, and hasn't had less than 7 in the last 5 years (and during this time, he's been in trouble with the law or suspended by the league, how many times was it again?......but I digress). He's stayed healthy and has played in every single game for his team for the last 6 years running. Now, from a purely football perspective, please tell me another receiver to wear a Skins Jersey since probably the Posse that can come even close to that. I love Santana Moss, but take a look: Santana Moss, the two just don't compare. To trivialize the impact that CJ would have on any team he goes to is simply allowing your personal feelings to get in the way of any football judgment you may have. You might not like him or want him, but denying his production or the impact he could have?.....history just doesn't support the argument.

Now, if you are firmly in the camp that thinks there is no way we should spend our first rounder on a WR, then ok, I guess the draft picks really are valuable. But looking at the history of young WRs and how many wasted first rounders there have been on "sure thing," "guaranteed superstar" WRs (see Charles Rogers, Peter Warrick, Mike Williams, Michael Westbrook, Desmond Howard, Rod Gardner, etc, etc, etc), I'd trade our first rounder and another mid-rounder in a heartbeat to have what we already know has been a Pro Bowl caliber WR for the last 5-6 years running (as opposed to someone who Mel Kiper "projects" to be a great NFL WR before he even steps foot on an NFL practice field). Personally, I hope we draft DE in the first round, but even if we luck out and get a good to great DE at #21 in the draft, it still wouldn't have the effect that having CJ would have IMO. You mention our thin and old O-line and secondary and lack of a pass-rusher, and I agree those are all areas of concern. So what do you think about our WR corp? Are you seriously going to tell me that our WR group is solid and you're happy to have another year of Moss (who has played 16 games twice in his career) and Randle El (who is a natural #3 WR, not a 2) as our #1 and #2 with who behind them? Seriously, if one of those guys goes down, who is going to step in and step up? Do you really feel all warm and fuzzy about that group and only have questions about the other areas on this team? Let's face it, CJ would make for a huge improvement in the quality and depth of our WR corp (which is crucial to the development of a young QB like JC........I've felt sorry for him more times than I can count when our WRs were so decimated that James Thrash, Reche Caldwell, and Keenan McCardell were the only guys he had to throw to).

Alright, I think I've gone on long enough (and hopefully I've made my points).

Yes, Chad Johnson is one of the elite wide receivers in the league. Yes, Chad Johnson has put up some outstanding numbers during his career. And yes, Chad Johnson has kept himself off the police blotter and, as far as we know, has no drug issues. But, look at the way he's carrying on right now. He's acting like a total fool and someone like that can be a potential cancer in the locker room. And given the way Dan Snyder has acted as a fantasy football owner in the past, I just feel like he'd move heaven and earth for Chad even if Chad is in the wrong. Who's to say he won't walk in here and say, "**** you. Danny loves me. I can do want I want?" You're right. Wide receiver is a weak spot on this team. But, I don't want to sacrifice first-round draft picks for a head case who'd cause the team to implode.

Also, for all of his gaudy stats, how many Super Bowls have the Bengals won with him? They haven't even been to the playoffs since 2005 while we've made two appearances in that same time frame. What makes you so sure he'll push us over the top? He'll improve the offense, but I go back to what I said about the other holes this team needs to address with the draft picks we have.

There's also his much-publicized feud with Carson Palmer that culminated in a shouting match after an interception that happened because Stinko ran the wrong route. There was the shoving match/fist fight between him and the assistant coach. Given that we have a new coach and an organization that, while it's improving in terms of player personnel decisions, still has the tendency to be dysfunctional, in my opinion, isn't qualified to handle a personality like that of Johnson's.

It boils down to a fit and I just think mixing Johnson's personality with the organizational make-up as it is now -- not to mention the draft picks we'd have to give up -- would be dangerous for this team.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by KB24

This sentence is a HUGE reason why we need to pass on Stinko. If things don't go well and Chad starts whining, it's going to have a ripple effect, starting with a man who's in his first head coaching job and trickle on down, poisoning the team.

You guys act like Zorn is some flash in the pan, here today and gone tomorrow college coach. He has been in the league for years and under Holmgren for that matter. He is not Petrino or Kiffin.

[KB24]

Originally Posted by angryssg

You guys act like Zorn is some flash in the pan, here today and gone tomorrow college coach. He has been in the league for years and under Holmgren for that matter. He is not Petrino or Kiffin.

Okay. Two years ago, Chad signed a contract that nearly moved him to near tears and he said that he'd never forget the generosity of the Bengals organization. Now, that contract isn't good enough and he won't participate in any of the activities unless he gets a new one. That's the attitude of a spoiled, me-first athlete who's more concerned about "getting his" than he is about the team. I think about his little touchdown celebration where he donned a faux Hall-of-Fame jacket. While many people laughed, I saw it as someone who's saying he made all the blocks on the field, threw the pass and ran under it to catch it for a touchdown. He's a clown and I don't want him in my team's locker room.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by KB24

Yes, Chad Johnson is one of the elite wide receivers in the league. Yes, Chad Johnson has put up some outstanding numbers during his career. And yes, Chad Johnson has kept himself off the police blotter and, as far as we know, has no drug issues. But, look at the way he's carrying on right now. He's acting like a total fool and someone like that can be a potential cancer in the locker room. And given the way Dan Snyder has acted as a fantasy football owner in the past, I just feel like he'd move heaven and earth for Chad even if Chad is in the wrong. Who's to say he won't walk in here and say, "**** you. Danny loves me. I can do want I want?" You're right. Wide receiver is a weak spot on this team. But, I don't want to sacrifice first-round draft picks for a head case who'd cause the team to implode.

Well, you've made my point for me. He's been in the league 7 years and all anyone can point to is how he looks right now, at this one moment, in the midst of a contract dispute. I just don't see the support to conclude that he's a locker room cancer or that he would implode the team. The Bengals are the most pathetic franchise in football, and with all of their problems over the last few years, when was CJ ever the cause of them? He's ripping the Bengals because he's pissed at the Bengals. I see no reason to assume if he came here he wouldn't be thrilled with the team (and his new contract)......or at least for the first 7 years....which is fine by me.

Also, for all of his gaudy stats, how many Super Bowls have the Bengals won with him? They haven't even been to the playoffs since 2005 while we've made two appearances in that same time frame. What makes you so sure he'll push us over the top? He'll improve the offense, but I go back to what I said about the other holes this team needs to address with the draft picks we have.

You can't be serious. You're not really going to pin the Bengals' failures on CJ? I think their absolutely pathetic defense and RB by committee has a lot more to do with their failures than CJ. On a terrible team he's managed the stats I noted before....to me, that makes his accomplishments that much more remarkable. Hell, I could go for 1,000 yards on the Colts or Patriots, but the Bungles?

There's also his much-publicized feud with Carson Palmer that culminated in a shouting match after an interception that happened because Stinko ran the wrong route. There was the shoving match/fist fight between him and the assistant coach. Given that we have a new coach and an organization that, while it's improving in terms of player personnel decisions, still has the tendency to be dysfunctional, in my opinion, isn't qualified to handle a personality like that of Johnson's.

Fist fight? Really? No exaggeration there? I hadn't heard about that one. And one instance of a wrong route and a shouting match with his qb? Ok, sorry, still haven't changed my mind.

It boils down to a fit and I just think mixing Johnson's personality with the organizational make-up as it is now -- not to mention the draft picks we'd have to give up -- would be dangerous for this team.

Fair opinion. Although I really don't understand what everyone expects to get with these draft picks. Does everyone really understand just how nearly impossible it will be to have even 3 of our first 5 picks end up being starters of three years or more? I'm a draft nut, and I look forward to it as much as the super bowl (actually more), but you've got to be realistic in your expectations of how these players are going to pan out.

[freddyg12]

I agree w/KB24. Take a look at ocho's career & what you see is a guy that in the last couple years has gone from entertaining to disruptive. He's gotten progressively more demanding & less disciplined a la TO, who btw also has no criminal record.

A pattern has started w/his behavior. Can it change? Sure, but the question to me is, have we seen the worst of it or is the worst yet to come? When TO was yelling at his o coordinator in SF that looked pretty bad, but that was nothing compared to how he acted in philly. IMO, CJ has all the signs of becoming nearly as much of a problem.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

Well, you've made my point for me. He's been in the league 7 years and all anyone can point to is how he looks right now, at this one moment, in the midst of a contract dispute. I just don't see the support to conclude that he's a locker room cancer or that he would implode the team. The Bengals are the most pathetic franchise in football, and with all of their problems over the last few years, when was CJ ever the cause of them? He's ripping the Bengals because he's pissed at the Bengals. I see no reason to assume if he came here he wouldn't be thrilled with the team (and his new contract)......or at least for the first 7 years....which is fine by me.



You can't be serious. You're not really going to pin the Bengals' failures on CJ? I think their absolutely pathetic defense and RB by committee has a lot more to do with their failures than CJ. On a terrible team he's managed the stats I noted before....to me, that makes his accomplishments that much more remarkable. Hell, I could go for 1,000 yards on the Colts or Patriots, but the Bungles?



Fist fight? Really? No exaggeration there? I hadn't heard about that one. And one instance of a wrong route and a shouting match with his qb? Ok, sorry, still haven't changed my mind.



Fair opinion. Although I really don't understand what everyone expects to get with these draft picks. Does everyone really understand just how nearly impossible it will be to have even 3 of our first 5 picks end up being starters of three years or more? I'm a draft nut, and I look forward to it as much as the super bowl (actually more), but you've got to be realistic in your expectations of how these players are going to pan out.

Let's get some things straight; he's not in a "contract dispute" because he signed a new deal in 06 & his team has a significant investment in $ & cap space in him. He's simply unhappy in Cincy & is demanding a trade, not holding out for more $. the money is there, he just has to show up.

See the numerous other posts in this thread or other threads about the alleged fight in the playoff game v. Pitt a couple years ago. There are different sides to the story but the fact that one former bengal has said that CJ definitely swung at Marvin Lewis, is enough for me to conclude that this guy might have some discipline issues.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by KB24

Okay. Two years ago, Chad signed a contract that nearly moved him to near tears and he said that he'd never forget the generosity of the Bengals organization. Now, that contract isn't good enough and he won't participate in any of the activities unless he gets a new one. That's the attitude of a spoiled, me-first athlete who's more concerned about "getting his" than he is about the team. I think about his little touchdown celebration where he donned a faux Hall-of-Fame jacket. While many people laughed, I saw it as someone who's saying he made all the blocks on the field, threw the pass and ran under it to catch it for a touchdown. He's a clown and I don't want him in my team's locker room.

The Chad Johnson crisis has nothing to do with him wanting more money. He was blamed for the Bengals decline last year even though the organization has failed to keep good players on defense around. He feels that since the organization thinks that he is a problem, then trade him. If they do not want to keep the players around to be successfull, then trade him. He wants a fresh start with a fresh team. A team that is willing to do what it takes to win. He just wants to win. None of this was started over money.

Now if he does get traded and wants a new contract it is understandable. Do you go into a new job making the same amount of money or the same contract that you had with your previous employer? No, so a little upgrade in the salary figure so long as it is reasonable, should be expected.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by KB24

Okay. Two years ago, Chad signed a contract that nearly moved him to near tears and he said that he'd never forget the generosity of the Bengals organization. Now, that contract isn't good enough and he won't participate in any of the activities unless he gets a new one. That's the attitude of a spoiled, me-first athlete who's more concerned about "getting his" than he is about the team. I think about his little touchdown celebration where he donned a faux Hall-of-Fame jacket. While many people laughed, I saw it as someone who's saying he made all the blocks on the field, threw the pass and ran under it to catch it for a touchdown. He's a clown and I don't want him in my team's locker room.

His beef with the Bengals isn't about his contract, he wants to be traded.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

See the numerous other posts in this thread or other threads about the alleged fight in the playoff game v. Pitt a couple years ago. There are different sides to the story but the fact that one former bengal has said that CJ definitely swung at Marvin Lewis, is enough for me to conclude that this guy might have some discipline issues.

"Alleged" and "different sides to the story." Ok, got it.

Amazing to me that a player could swing at the head coach and not suffer a single consequence. TO got benched for the year for being disruptive and calling out McNabb........and Lewis doesn't sit Johnson for even a quarter......for swinging at him? If I'm to believe that story then I must also bring myself to believe that Marvin Lewis is the most spineless, sorriest excuse for a man that has ever coached a game in the NFL.

[KB24]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

Well, you've made my point for me. He's been in the league 7 years and all anyone can point to is how he looks right now, at this one moment, in the midst of a contract dispute. I just don't see the support to conclude that he's a locker room cancer or that he would implode the team. The Bengals are the most pathetic franchise in football, and with all of their problems over the last few years, when was CJ ever the cause of them? He's ripping the Bengals because he's pissed at the Bengals. I see no reason to assume if he came here he wouldn't be thrilled with the team (and his new contract)......or at least for the first 7 years....which is fine by me.

The Redskins haven't exactly lit up the league over the past several years, either. Yes, we've made those two playoff appearances I've mentioned earlier. But, who's to say he won't rip the Redskins in the same way if the winning doesn't start immediately with his presence? A lot of people think that the Skins are one player away from being a contender and that's just not the case.

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

You can't be serious. You're not really going to pin the Bengals' failures on CJ? I think their absolutely pathetic defense and RB by committee has a lot more to do with their failures than CJ. On a terrible team he's managed the stats I noted before....to me, that makes his accomplishments that much more remarkable. Hell, I could go for 1,000 yards on the Colts or Patriots, but the Bungles?

Everyone is talking about his numbers and I'm sure he could do the same here. But, we have an aging, injury-prone offensive line with only one proven, viable back-up. You have only one consistent pash-rusher teams have to worry about. You have questions in the secondary with personnel (the loss of Sean Taylor), age (Shawn Springs) and injury (Carlos Rogers). Adding a skill player will do NOTHING to improve those deficiencies and I think we'd be sacrificing quite a bit to get someone who, in the big picture, may or may not do that much to change the team's on-field performance.

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

Fist fight? Really? No exaggeration there? I hadn't heard about that one. And one instance of a wrong route and a shouting match with his qb? Ok, sorry, still haven't changed my mind.

Links on some of his disruptive behavior:

ProFootballTalk.com - CHAD, T.J. “OUT OF CONTROL”
ProFootballTalk.com - OCHO STINKO CONTINUES TO GRIPE
ProFootballTalk.com - OCHO STINKO SHOVES LEAGUE EMPLOYEE
ProFootballTalk.com - MORE THAN TWO YEARS LATER, VINDICATION

That shouting match took place on Monday Night Football. For all of his outstanding play, he also can be a VERY disruptive force.

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

Fair opinion. Although I really don't understand what everyone expects to get with these draft picks. Does everyone really understand just how nearly impossible it will be to have even 3 of our first 5 picks end up being starters of three years or more? I'm a draft nut, and I look forward to it as much as the super bowl (actually more), but you've got to be realistic in your expectations of how these players are going to pan out.

ALL of the New York Giants' 2007 draft picks made solid contributions during the playoffs. If the person(s) making the picks has done his homework and has a solid system in place where even if the player doesn't step right in and contribute, he could act as a VERY viable back-up until pressed into the starting role, said player, as the Giants proved last season, can make an immediate impact.