The Obama Years- A GOP love story

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Again you referencing war...you can be aggressive without firing a shot. How many times I gotta say this? War is reactive thinking, but the fact is you gotta do something...

No, I'm not referencing war.

I'm pointing out that if it was indeed members of Russian military that did this, then the only way we're ever going to figure out who and why, and attempt to bring anyone to justice, is with the cooperation of Russia.

The rest of the world leaders going on TV and finger shaming Putin isn't going to help in that cause. More sanctions isn't going to help in that cause. Any sign of military aggression (reposition of ships, troops on borders, creating and patrolling no fly zones, etc etc etc) is not going to help.

In fact, I think it's reasonable to assume that those types of things are likely to shut down any real cooperation and communication between Russia and the rest of the world, resulting in not being able to conduct an investigation properly and bring people to trial.

"you gotta do something..."

I keep hearing that everywhere I turn... Here. Radio. TV. I don't hear much else to back it up.


edit: Oh, maybe it was my 'using this to take shots' that confused what I was saying. I mean figuratively, not literally

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by tshile

No, I'm not referencing war.

I'm pointing out that if it was indeed members of Russian military that did this, then the only way we're ever going to figure out who and why, and attempt to bring anyone to justice, is with the cooperation of Russia.

The rest of the world leaders going on TV and finger shaming Putin isn't going to help in that cause. More sanctions isn't going to help in that cause. Any sign of military aggression (reposition of ships, troops on borders, creating and patrolling no fly zones, etc etc etc) is not going to help.

In fact, I think it's reasonable to assume that those types of things are likely to shut down any real cooperation and communication between Russia and the rest of the world, resulting in not being able to conduct an investigation properly and bring people to trial.

"you gotta do something..."

I keep hearing that everywhere I turn... Here. Radio. TV. I don't hear much else to back it up.


edit: Oh, maybe it was my 'using this to take shots' that confused what I was saying. I mean figuratively, not literally

Ok, so assuming the facts will find Russia and the separtists downed the plane what you have now is Netherlands as a stakeholder. How did this all begin any ways...right Ukraine moving closer to the EU and then reversing that decision and signing a deal with Russia. You gotta rally around the fact Europe has now been affected by this war with the plane down. Rally the Netherlands and the EU. EU has to demand this war ends. Isolate Russia..work sanctions and threatin embargo. Engage other stakeholders..the other ex Soviet states. Organize them together with the EU. Dont engage Russia in any of this. Then you gotta bring the guilt trip down on the separtist...you caused this, a killing of innocents. At the same time we getting economic aggreements signed with the EU and the ex soviet states. The move really is to isolate Russia and get the EU to buy into the Ukraine (among the other ex soviet states) and the ends is to get the Separtist to the table to talk disarmanent and permanent ceasefire, inclusion within the goverment. After that...Russia is gonna be pissed, then you engage them to not negotiate but to tell them this is how the future of Europe looks.

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Ok, so assuming the facts will find Russia and the separtists downed the plane what you have now is Netherlands as a stakeholder. How did this all begin any ways...right Ukraine moving closer to the EU and then reversing that decision and signing a deal with Russia. You gotta rally around the fact Europe has now been affected by this war with the plane down. Rally the Netherlands and the EU. EU has to demand this war ends. Isolate Russia..work sanctions and threatin embargo. Engage other stakeholders..the other ex Soviet states. Organize them together with the EU. Dont engage Russia in any of this. Then you gotta bring the guilt trip down on the separtist...you caused this, a killing of innocents. At the same time we getting economic aggreements signed with the EU and the ex soviet states. The move really is to isolate Russia and get the EU to buy into the Ukraine (among the other ex soviet states) and the ends is to get the Separtist to the table to talk disarmanent and permanent ceasefire, inclusion within the goverment. After that...Russia is gonna be pissed, then you engage them to not negotiate but to tell them this is how the future of Europe looks.

The problem I have with that plan is that it basically means we're feigning outrage over the airliner - because nothing in that does anything about the airliner being shot down. This recent incident becomes nothing more than a pawn in a bigger Us Vs Russia game and nothing else. Is there anyone that actually thinks, if Russia is responsible, that they did this on purpose? If so, what's the motive? Russia has nothing to gain and much to lose if it's found out they purposefully show down a civilian airliner....

To me it seems like your plan leads us down a path of nothingness.... Russia denies doing it... the international community blames them... but no one is ever held accountable, no legitimate investigation is ever really done, the truth is never actually discovered only muddled enough by both sides to cause people to fall back on their predisposition to the whole US vs Russia issue to begin with.

Those families actually affected by the issue receive... nothing.

And the whole thing becomes just a small part of the bigger issue.

Which is fine - if that's what you want. But I'd prefer the people that want that to stop feigning the outrage over the airliner, because with that plan it certainly seems like the actual shooting down of the airliner is at the bottom of their priority list.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by tshile

The problem I have with that plan is that it basically means we're feigning outrage over the airliner - because nothing in that does anything about the airliner being shot down. This recent incident becomes nothing more than a pawn in a bigger Us Vs Russia game and nothing else. Is there anyone that actually thinks, if Russia is responsible, that they did this on purpose? If so, what's the motive? Russia has nothing to gain and much to lose if it's found out they purposefully show down a civilian airliner....

To me it seems like your plan leads us down a path of nothingness.... Russia denies doing it... the international community blames them... but no one is ever held accountable, no legitimate investigation is ever really done, the truth is never actually discovered only muddled enough by both sides to cause people to fall back on their predisposition to the whole US vs Russia issue to begin with.

Those families actually affected by the issue receive... nothing.

And the whole thing becomes just a small part of the bigger issue.

Which is fine - if that's what you want. But I'd prefer the people that want that to stop feigning the outrage over the airliner, because with that plan it certainly seems like the actual shooting down of the airliner is at the bottom of their priority list.

LOL ooooooooohhhhh so you want justice for the families? So YOUR moving the ends now. So your down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting. I expect that from this generation.

Its more of a strategy than a plan. See you got to lead for it work, you have to convice and persuade...its not easy. You have to get others to buy in and give it a vision. Its called leadership...

There was no motive for Russia to do this, it was an accident. Come'on. motive? really

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

LOL ooooooooohhhhh so you want justice for the families? So YOUR moving the ends now. So your down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting. I expect that from this generation.

Its more of a strategy than a plan. See you got to lead for it work, you have to convice and persuade...its not easy. You have to get others to buy in and give it a vision. Its called leadership...

There was no motive for Russia to do this, it was an accident. Come'on. motive? really

I don't think what I want is relevant, to be honest. But I thought generally people would want justice - not for the families, but against the people that shot down a commercial airliner. There is a tad bit of a difference there.

I'm not sure what sparks you to think I'm down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting, much less what caused you to take shots at my 'generation.' You seem to be quick to size up who I am after what... 50 posts here, only a handful having anything to do with politics? Nice to know...

If you're not interested in motive for taking such a heinous action then I don't suppose you're interested in any of the facts at all, or the actual issue of an airliner being downed.

Which, as I said, is fine. But please... spare us the fake outrage over the airliner... that's clearly not your actual issue.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by tshile

I don't think what I want is relevant, to be honest. But I thought generally people would want justice - not for the families, but against the people that shot down a commercial airliner. There is a tad bit of a difference there.

I'm not sure what sparks you to think I'm down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting, much less what caused you to take shots at my 'generation.' You seem to be quick to size up who I am after what... 50 posts here, only a handful having anything to do with politics? Nice to know...

If you're not interested in motive for taking such a heinous action then I don't suppose you're interested in any of the facts at all, or the actual issue of an airliner being downed.

Which, as I said, is fine. But please... spare us the fake outrage over the airliner... that's clearly not your actual issue.

Im/We are outraged over the airliner, why are we not? The shooting of the plane is a rally point, you honor the victims by ending all this foolishness...I dont get fake outrage, 9/11 was feign outrage to invade Afganistan and stop the Taliban? Why cant we seek justice, do the investigation and stop the war in the Ukraine? See what i mean is this generation cant hold focus, its instant gratification and then move on. Internet shaming wont work on Russia.

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Im/We are outraged over the airliner, why are we not? The shooting of the plane is a rally point, you honor the victims by ending all this foolishness...I dont get fake outrage, 9/11 was feign outrage to invade Afganistan and stop the Taliban? Why cant we seek justice, do the investigation and stop the war in the Ukraine? See what i mean is this generation cant hold focus, its instant gratification and then move on. Internet shaming wont work on Russia.

Right... because everything I've talked about has to do with instant gratification and internet shaming.

When you're ready to stop taking jabs at me for asking simple and basic questions (that you've still yet to answer) let me know. I'll continue the conversation.