Redskins vs. Cowboys Gameday thread

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by JWsleep

Listening to Zorn's presser, he basically called it correctly: the game was determined by the fact that they could get to our QB and we couldn't get to theirs.

He said that several deep plays (including an "easy TD to Thomas") were killed by pressure. He claimed that it's tough or JC if he has no time. But he noted a few plays (like the incomplete 4th down) where JC should have gone to another receiver. All this is pretty obvious, no doubt.

I went into this year thinking we're an 8-8 team that could be a WC if we play well and could be below 6 wins if we play poorly or have killer injuries. Let's get it turned around next week in Seattle. If we win there, it's 7-4 and home for the gints. It's clearly a must win next week--but thank god it's not the national night game!

At this point, we're going to have to dance with the date we came in with--I don't see the possibility of a big change on the o-line. Let's hope they can patch it up: Buges has worked miracles before. Thomas looked better today, IMO. Yes, he had the big 3rd down drop (thought he got held on that play, personally), but he made some plays. Kelley is the guy who needs to step up now, especially if ARE is hurt. It's time, kid. It would certainly be nice to see Davis, but that's less important right now.

Anyone who calls these guys busts is premature. Zorn is clearly not at all comfortable with folks who can't run the precise routes and Buges doesn't want a rookie TE to blow a blocking scheme. Those guys are learning. It's ok to bring them along slowly, IMO.

And those of you who think JC is a bust, I just don't see it. With time, he's shown he can make the plays. Even in this game, his mobility allowed a lot of stuff to happen. He also AUDIBLED to the QB draw--nice. And if Santana fucking Moss could have caught the ball, we might have won the game. That was a 50 yard pass that hit our #1 WR IN THE HANDS! Come on. JC is not the problem. He's not there yet, sure. But he's got the skills and under Zorn he's going to be a good one. Pass pro, everyone running the precise routes, and JC getting completely fluid on his 2nd and 3rd reads, and we'll be fine. Note that without O-line play, as all have correctly pointed out, it's moot.

Don't be so sure about that. Even if Moss catches the TD, our D still has to stop them on the next drive. Dallas didn't even need a score to win, and they still jammed it down our throats.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by JWsleep

Here's a possibility. They drafted for skill positions this year; they'll draft on the lines next. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised to see an FA pickup on the o-line next season (after our usual cap juggling). Who's out there?

Well I hope that wasn't the thinking, because if so our FO is even dumber than I thought. Draft O-line first, then see what you can do with time to throw to the guys you have. If that doesn't work, THEN you bring in more pass catchers. Or we could have used just one of those 2nd round picks on a meaningful lineman on either side of the ball.

[JWsleep]

Originally Posted by johnwayne

i feel alot of this is on campbell also...im prolly gonna get smashed but i think hes alot of the problem along with the o-line...i love this guy and been behind him the whole time... but our offense isn't getting any better and he makes weird decisions with the ball at times...im not conviced he's the guy and idk....go ahead and kill me...

He can still improve his reads, no doubt. But often he does not have time to stand in and set. He's been hitting the relief-valve underneath stuff. But I don't think the plays are supposed to go there, when they work. He got hit an awful lot tonight and kept swinging. Sometimes, improvement goes in fits and starts. Remember, this is still Zorn's first year and JCs first year in the system. There are going to be rough patches. Let's see how he looks in Seattle. I'd be very surprised if he plays as bad as in the last two.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Well who do you suggest we bring in for Rabach, RT and DT? Once the season starts there really isn't much you can do. The back ups are back ups for a reason. The personel changes can't be made until the off season.

Yep. Pretty much the problem here.

If you, or I, or Smootsmack were running this team, we don't go into the season with James Thrash and two rookies behind the two starters. We also don't ignore Rabach's weakness all offseason.

I think the front office has done a pretty good job getting us to 6-4 in a transition year, but there were easy solutions (cough, DJ Hackett) available that we just ignored in the offseason. And now were here. Not 8-2 or 7-3, but 6-4.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Well I hope that wasn't the thinking, because if so our FO is even dumber than I thought. Draft O-line first, then see what you can do with time to throw to the guys you have. If that doesn't work, THEN you bring in more pass catchers. Or we could have used just one of those 2nd round picks on a meaningful lineman on either side of the ball.

Yep, uncharacteristically, I was willing to give the FO a chance for drafting the way they did this year in the second round.

It's looking more and more that those were dreadful decisions.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by JWsleep

Listening to Zorn's presser, he basically called it correctly: the game was determined by the fact that they could get to our QB and we couldn't get to theirs.

He said that several deep plays (including an "easy TD to Thomas") were killed by pressure. He claimed that it's tough or JC if he has no time. But he noted a few plays (like the incomplete 4th down) where JC should have gone to another receiver. All this is pretty obvious, no doubt.

I went into this year thinking we're an 8-8 team that could be a WC if we play well and could be below 6 wins if we play poorly or have killer injuries. Let's get it turned around next week in Seattle. If we win there, it's 7-4 and home for the gints. It's clearly a must win next week--but thank god it's not the national night game!

At this point, we're going to have to dance with the date we came in with--I don't see the possibility of a big change on the o-line. Let's hope they can patch it up: Buges has worked miracles before. Thomas looked better today, IMO. Yes, he had the big 3rd down drop (thought he got held on that play, personally), but he made some plays. Kelley is the guy who needs to step up now, especially if ARE is hurt. It's time, kid. It would certainly be nice to see Davis, but that's less important right now.

Anyone who calls these guys busts is premature. Zorn is clearly not at all comfortable with folks who can't run the precise routes and Buges doesn't want a rookie TE to blow a blocking scheme. Those guys are learning. It's ok to bring them along slowly, IMO.

And those of you who think JC is a bust, I just don't see it. With time, he's shown he can make the plays. Even in this game, his mobility allowed a lot of stuff to happen. He also AUDIBLED to the QB draw--nice. And if Santana fucking Moss could have caught the ball, we might have won the game. That was a 50 yard pass that hit our #1 WR IN THE HANDS! Come on. JC is not the problem. He's not there yet, sure. But he's got the skills and under Zorn he's going to be a good one. Pass pro, everyone running the precise routes, and JC getting completely fluid on his 2nd and 3rd reads, and we'll be fine. Note that without O-line play, as all have correctly pointed out, it's moot.

Great post JWsleep, right on the money.

[JWsleep]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Well I hope that wasn't the thinking, because if so our FO is even dumber than I thought. Draft O-line first, then see what you can do with time to throw to the guys you have. If that doesn't work, THEN you bring in more pass catchers. Or we could have used just one of those 2nd round picks on a meaningful lineman on either side of the ball.

I agree about using one 2nd rounder on the line--not sure why they didn't. My guess is that they didn't have linemen highly ranked on their board for some reason. They obviously stuck with that thinking: ranking over position.

Still, as I said, I am not ready to give up on Thomas, Kelly, and Davis. If those guys develop AND we draft and FA on the line, I'm fine with that. Obviously, that's a huge IF. Anyway, can't go back and redraft, I'm afraid.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Well I hope that wasn't the thinking, because if so our FO is even dumber than I thought. Draft O-line first, then see what you can do with time to throw to the guys you have. If that doesn't work, THEN you bring in more pass catchers. Or we could have used just one of those 2nd round picks on a meaningful lineman on either side of the ball.

Exactly GMScud. You START with the lines and work your way out.

[johnwayne]

Originally Posted by JWsleep

He can still improve his reads, no doubt. But often he does not have time to stand in and set. He's been hitting the relief-valve underneath stuff. But I don't think the plays are supposed to go there, when they work. He got hit an awful lot tonight and kept swinging. Sometimes, improvement goes in fits and starts. Remember, this is still Zorn's first year and JCs first year in the system. There are going to be rough patches. Let's see how he looks in Seattle. I'd be very surprised if he plays as bad as in the last two.

your prolly right...it's so hard being a skin's fan for me...i forget that sometimes because they have played good at times...I'm just finally ready for the skins to not get my hopes up so much and actually do what i know they can do...

[RMSkins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Yep. Pretty much the problem here.

Exactly! Zorn knows that we have a serious problem in pass-pro and it's probably going to be like that the rest of the season. Now the question is: can Zorn adjust his playcalling to compensate for the horrible pass protection?

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by RMSkins

Exactly! Zorn knows that we have a serious problem in pass-pro and it's probably going to be like that the rest of the season. Now the question is: can Zorn adjust his playcalling to compensate for the horrible pass protection?

Yeah, the way you adjust for poor pass protection is to throw shorter, quicker passing routes -- which is exactly what everyone is complaining about. So until they learn how to pass block, Zorn will have to get the ball out of Jason Campbell's hands as quickly as possible. And that means no deep ball.

[JWsleep]

Originally Posted by RMSkins

Exactly! Zorn knows that we have a serious problem in pass-pro and it's probably going to be like that the rest of the season. Now the question is: can Zorn adjust his playcalling to compensate for the horrible pass protection?

In response to a question about why we threw short so much, Zorn said he had to adjust to what he COULD run, given the pass pro problems. He also said they'll consider all their schemes and play calling to see what might be fixable. The high number of screens and quick passes to the WRs was a result of the poor pass pro tonight.

[JWsleep]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Yeah, the way you adjust for poor pass protection is to throw shorter, quicker passing routes -- which is exactly what everyone is complaining about. So until they learn how to pass block, Zorn will have to get the ball out of Jason Campbell's hands as quickly as possible. And that means no deep ball.

What he said.

[GusFrerotte]

Zorn needs to throw out most of those rollout plays and most of those side screen plays. JC could have had 2-3 more pics with those plays, and if our guys do catch those passes they get virtually no gain on the play. I am starting to doubt some the merits of the WCO. Poor line play is involved for sure, but damn our O line used to be pretty good. All of a sudden they suck? The system needs to be tweaked and yes younger O line are sorely needed.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Yeah, the way you adjust for poor pass protection is to throw shorter, quicker passing routes -- which is exactly what everyone is complaining about. So until they learn how to pass block, Zorn will have to get the ball out of Jason Campbell's hands as quickly as possible. And that means no deep ball.

It's kind of a catch-22 isn't it? We can't throw deep because of the pass rush and they play closer to the line because we don't throw deep. On the play after Moss dropped the long ball, I think we got good yardage on the next play if I remember right. Even if we don't complete the deep pass I think we at least need to show it.