Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?

[KLHJ2]

See-Saw Continues: Judge Blocks Suspension for Vikes' Tackles -- NFL FanHouse

One thing I can't help but shake in this situation is that the players still tested positive for a banned substance. A positive test is a positive test. It's not like they are being kicked out of football for life. It's a four-game suspension. Among people who discuss things like this with NFL players, it's pretty common knowledge that herds of players don't take anything like StarCaps, for fear they'll end up in the exact situation of the Vikings' two tackles.

Plus, when something is known as a steroids-masking agent, you'd think players nowadays would be paranoid to get caught with it -- for fear people would stigmatize them as a steroids-abuser (oh wait, that's only baseball players who have to worry about the stigma).

I completely disagree with the Authors sentiments here.

1. The reason that the supplement is considered banned is because it contained "bumetanide" otherwise it would be ok.

2. If the banned substance "bumetanide" is not on the label then how in the world are you supposed to know that it is in the supplement? You cannot assume that the players knew if it is not on the label.

3. If the NFL knew why didn't they notify the Teams and Players? You cannot punish people for doing wrong if they had no way of knowing that they were doing wrong.

[skinsfan69]

Not guilty. The NFL seriously needs to chill out with all the BS. Soon they're not going to allow players to drink Red Bull. It so stupid.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Angry

See-Saw Continues: Judge Blocks Suspension for Vikes' Tackles -- NFL FanHouse




I completely disagree with the Authors sentiments here.

1. The reason that the supplement is considered banned is because it contained "bumetanide" otherwise it would be ok.

So? Most banned supplements are banned for just one thing. Whether it has 1 or 50 banned ingredients seems irrelevant to me.

2. If the banned substance "bumetanide" is not on the label then how in the world are you supposed to know that it is in the supplement? You cannot assume that the players knew if it is not on the label.

I'd disagree. Players should know what's going in your body. If you take something that is banned then you suffer the consequences. They can go ahead and sue the pants off the company for mislabeling. They should. It sounds harsh but in the end everyone is responsible to KNOW WHAT IS GOING IN THEIR BODY. If they take a supplement then they are assuming a level of risk. Hell, if they ingest anything they are assuming a level of risk as it pertains to the ingredients. In the case of supplements the risk is clearly much higher than say a PB&J. I'd file it under "life is not fair". To me this draws a nice solid line for players to be aware of what is right and wrong.

3. If the NFL knew why didn't they notify the Teams and Players? You cannot punish people for doing wrong if they had no way of knowing that they were doing wrong.

1000000% agree. To me the argument I made about point 2 is affected by this. The league should be making every effort to be transparent with this type of information. The league's lack of candor helped prevent the players from having all the info. This shifts some blame to them.

[firstdown]

The judge is probably a Vikes season ticket holder.

[WaldSkins]

How does this thread belong in the redskins locker room?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by WaldSkins

How does this thread belong in the redskins locker room?

Read the description for the locker room..."Redskins & general NFL Discussion"

[Daseal]

Absolutely not guilty. Teams put these weight restrictions on guys just to make weight. I don't think this had anything to do with masking steroids, but with trying to drop a few pounds so their checkbooks wouldn't take a hit.

Secondly, Im not sure about the Williams', but I know the Saints guy that got it called the NFL drug hotline to ASK if he could use the product. And after 3 attempts they still hadn't called back. If the league knows about this they NEED to tell the players. The fact that the NFL can't keep someone on the phone 24 hour a day for players to be able to check up on if a substance is banned or not is a real issue.

FRPLG -- That whole knowing what goes into your body spiel doesn't cut it, in my opinion. Here's the problem, anything you take now days is so processed it has 30 different ingredients. As far as I know, the NFL doesn't even have a searchable database including the banned substances and well known products with said substances in them. That would really speed things up.

Basically, the NFL needs to do a better job of helping the players find out what substances are banned. I want to know when someone is taking steroids and have them sit. I don't want to punish someone who tried to do their homework, couldn't get an answer from the league, ends up taking a product because the training staff said go ahead, then getting a 4 game suspension.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Daseal

FRPLG -- That whole knowing what goes into your body spiel doesn't cut it, in my opinion. Here's the problem, anything you take now days is so processed it has 30 different ingredients. As far as I know, the NFL doesn't even have a searchable database including the banned substances and well known products with said substances in them. That would really speed things up.

We're just gonna disagree on this. I believe that people should be rsponsible for themselves. You ingest something then you should know what it is. You eat a tomato you know it's a tomato. You eat a steak you know a cow gave it up for you. You take a little pill with 95 different ingredients then you are rolling the dice. Whose fault is it that you took the supplement? Your own. Whether it was on the label or not doesn't much matter to me in the sense that you should be absolved from the consequences of ingesting a banned substance when you did it unknowingly. It is banned. Ignorance isn't bliss and it isn't an excuse. You drive down the road and the speed limits changes and you get a ticket because you didn't notice it had changed then you got to pay up. I think we just look at things slightly different.

[KLHJ2]

FRPLG, if you are looking for a dietary supplement that doesn't have any banned substances within it, you're going to look at the nutrition facts page on that supplement. If that nutrition facts page does not contain a banned substance, then you are willing to take it, and therefore, trust the label.

The Williams' did their research on the supplement, on the banned drug was not present, only to find out later that it was. It is not their fault.

[RedBar]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

You ingest something then you should know what it is. You eat a tomato you know it's a tomato. You eat a steak you know a cow gave it up for you. You take a little pill with 95 different ingredients then you are rolling the dice. Whose fault is it that you took the supplement? Your own. Whether it was on the label or not doesn't much matter to me in the sense that you should be absolved from the consequences of ingesting a banned substance when you did it unknowingly. It is banned. Ignorance isn't bliss and it isn't an excuse. You drive down the road and the speed limits changes and you get a ticket because you didn't notice it had changed then you got to pay up. I think we just look at things slightly different.

FRPLG I think your taking this a bit far. These guys like most other people today do a highly specialized job. They play football at a high level, in doing that they learn a few things about nutrition- that doesn't mean they should be held to the standard of a doctor. They learn about mental toughness and visualizing an outcome- this doesn't mean they are psychics. Even your analogy isn't accurate, it is not akin to not "noticing" the speed limit changed it would be if there were no speed limit posted on the entire stretch of highway. Rules and Laws in any fair society must be posted for all to see. Otherwise we all become paranoid and or litigious, that in my opinion is not the message the NFL should be sending here. Accepting personal responsibility is one very human thing expecting perfection is not.

[Daseal]

FRPLG -- I guarantee you this. You don't have a clue what type of chemicals you're ingesting when you eat a steak. There's a lot more than just meat in there. All sorts of growth hormones, etc. Do you know what they are? Doubt it. It's not on the packaging.

[roth74va]

Originally Posted by RedBar

FRPLG I think your taking this a bit far. These guys like most other people today do a highly specialized job. They play football at a high level, in doing that they learn a few things about nutrition- that doesn't mean they should be held to the standard of a doctor. They learn about mental toughness and visualizing an outcome- this doesn't mean they are psychics. Even your analogy isn't accurate, it is not akin to not "noticing" the speed limit changed it would be if there were no speed limit posted on the entire stretch of highway. Rules and Laws in any fair society must be posted for all to see. Otherwise we all become paranoid and or litigious, that in my opinion is not the message the NFL should be sending here. Accepting personal responsibility is one very human thing expecting perfection is not.

The article says...The players contested that they took StarCaps, a weight-loss supplement, and that the label didn't say it contained bumetanide. This is true. The NFL admitted it knew StarCaps contained the diuretic, which, in turn, triggered a lawsuit from the Williams boys (no relation). The NFL should have informed the players in the league not to take this substance, according to the two Williamses and their attorney.

I disagree, I think they should be held responsible. I understand that they arent "psychics" or "doctors", but you should still have a clear understanding what you are taking when your job is on the line. These guys make a ton of money, and have immediate access to the best doctors and/or trainers that the clubs can provide. IMO....ignorance doesnt discount their violation of the rules, do your homework....or serve your time.

But....it is kinda sad that the league didnt put out the info beforehand.

[SmootSmack]

The NFL won't allow anything to happen that could jeopardize Favre's success upon his arrival to the Vikings in a couple of weeks...that's my conspiracy theory for the day

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

The NFL won't allow anything to happen that could jeopardize Favre's success upon his arrival to the Vikings in a couple of weeks...that's my conspiracy theory for the day

Conspiracy theory or truth? Or just the tip of the iceberg? Or is it possible that a certain Mr. Daniel Snyder owns the company that makes StarCaps? Is it possible by sabotaging the situation in Minnesota, Mr. Favre would be more inclined to sign with the Redskins and give Snyder the new big-name QB he seeks? Mike Florio or whatever his name is ain't got s**t on me!

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Angry

FRPLG, if you are looking for a dietary supplement that doesn't have any banned substances within it, you're going to look at the nutrition facts page on that supplement. If that nutrition facts page does not contain a banned substance, then you are willing to take it, and therefore, trust the label.

The Williams' did their research on the supplement, on the banned drug was not present, only to find out later that it was. It is not their fault.

They ingested it themselves. Whether they knew or not doesn't take away the fact that they ingested on their own volition. To me ignorance isn't an excuse. I don't have a bad opinion of them but at the end of the day they took a banned substance. They should suffer the consequences. Now a lot of my feelings are mitigated by the fact that the league knew about this particular supplement and didn't tell players. To me, in that case because they failed to communicate properly, it totslly negates the players guilt. I'd just drop this if I were the league. But for me, in the future, if players take a banned substance they should reap the consequences regardless of intent or knowledge.