Skins salary cap figures

[Redskins_P]

http://home.earthlink.net/~wahoofamily/salary04.htm

[SKINSnCANES]

thanks man. They are going ot add Trotter to that dead money list soon.

[Drift Reality]

If I'm not mistaken, as long as we cut Trotter after June 1st, he will count against next year's salary cap.

[Drift Reality]

I think Fiore will be cut after June 1st also.

[MTK]

They're probably waiting to see if Fiore will retire instead

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

They're probably waiting to see if Fiore will retire instead

This question has come up before - Does it make a difference in the salary cap if Fiore retires or is cut? If it does make a difference what is it?

I thought (and think) it doesn't make any difference and that any signing bonus would be accelerated as normal (i.e. pre-June 1, counts entirely against 2004, post-June 1 prorated into 2005).

Does anyone have an answer to this with some back up from a league source, or are we all just guessing on this one?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

This question has come up before - Does it make a difference in the salary cap if Fiore retires or is cut? If it does make a difference what is it?

I thought (and think) it doesn't make any difference and that any signing bonus would be accelerated as normal (i.e. pre-June 1, counts entirely against 2004, post-June 1 prorated into 2005).

Does anyone have an answer to this with some back up from a league source, or are we all just guessing on this one?

This is what I've been able to find so far:

"We already know that if a player is waived on or before June 1, the remaining signing bonus that has not been included in salary “accelerates” and is included in that year’s team salary. Acceleration also occurs when a player is traded or waived and picked up by another team. The new team is not responsible for any of the original signing bonus. The team that waived or traded the player is responsible for the accelerated signing bonus (in the same manner as described above). In most cases, if a player retires, the remaining signing bonus that has not been included in salary “accelerates” and is included in that year’s team salary. Thus, the team will take an immediate salary cap hit of the remaining signing bonus."

http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/faq.asp

[Defensewins]

PeteyPablo,
I think these figures are base salary only and do not represent the actual cap hit the team will take for each player. Some of these numbers seem low and I wonder if they do not include signing bonus or any incentive pay.
I have seen on other web sights that Chris Samuels cap hit (for example) this year will be a whopping $ 8.328M. However this sight says $5.132M.
Our resident cap expert CrazyCanuck is going to have to clear this up for us.

[FRPLG]

These definitely are base and using the bonus listed to figure out their cap hits doesn't really work as this doesn't consider everything inlcuded in a renegoiated contract. Samuels cap hit is 8.328 based on his base salary and a weird combination of roster bonuses,workout bonuses plus his signing bonus. He renegotiated last year to give 3.4 million in cap relief I believe and that is why we need a freaking Enrst and Young Accountant to figure this out. These renoegotiations are how the Skins make a mockery of the cap every year.

[hi-jinx]

One thing I never found out about the CAP. Does incentives count against the cap? And do if so which year do they count against? Is there a limit on the percent of salary or amount of money can come from incentives?

[CrazyCanuck]

Salary Cap

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Our resident cap expert CrazyCanuck is going to have to clear this up for us.

While I wouldn't consider myself a "cap expert", I have spent a lot of time researching the cap rules and trying to find reliable Skins contract info. Through various sources I've built my own "Skins Cap Spreadsheet" which seems to be pretty close to reality in most cases. I figured I'd share some of my findings for those interested. Sorry for the long post.

1. Where to find Skins contract/cap info:

A. http://www.nflpa.org/Media/main.asp?...+Player+Search

- The offical NFLPA site. You can search for any player in the league and find out their base salaries throughout the length of their contract. I treat this as the "official" source for salary info.

B. http://home.earthlink.net/~wahoofamily/salary04.htm

- This is Buddha's Redskins page. This site is one of my favorites and has a lot of useful information. He lists base salaries (probably taken from A.) and gives contract details regarding signing bonuses, etc. Unfortunately it does not give true cap numbers and the data is not always 100% accurate.

C. http://redskins.theinsiders.com/3/salary_cap_chart.html

- This is the Warpath Insider's cap page. It's the closest thing you'll find to an accurate cap chart on the net. It has salaries, prorated signing bonuses, as well as "other" bonuses that come into play when calculating the cap. Most of my numbers match this site but there are some discrepencies and I have found a few errors on their page. Nevertheless if you want a pretty accurate view of the Skins cap situation this is the place to go.

2. Cap Details:

A.

Originally Posted by Drift Reality

If I'm not mistaken, as long as we cut Trotter after June 1st, he will count against next year's salary cap.

If a player is cut/traded after June 1st only his current SB will count in the current year and all other prorated SB gets accelarted to the following year. So in Trotter's case he has $1.162M of prorated SB for 2004. This will count in 2004 no matter what. He also has an additional $4.647M of remaining SB after 2004. If he is cut before June 1st this additional amount is accelerated to 2004. If he's cut after June 1st it gets accelerated to 2005 instead.

B.

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

This question has come up before - Does it make a difference in the salary cap if Fiore retires or is cut? If it does make a difference what is it?

Good question. I have read of a "retirement provison" that may be in place to prevent a player from taking a huge signing bonus and then retiring soon afterwards (it's called the Barry Sanders rule). I'm not sure of the exact rules but basically the Skins may be entitled to some cap relief if Fiore retires. Again I'm not positive about this one.


C.

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Samuels cap hit is 8.328 based on his base salary and a weird combination of roster bonuses,workout bonuses plus his signing bonus.

Very true. In fact the only two players for which I consistently find cap number discrepencies are for Samuels and Arrington. As FRPLG mentioned, the reason is their complex contract structure, and more importantly, the multiple contract restructures that both players have gone through. For these reasons it is very hard to find accurate info about the contract details and/or bonus structures that are needed to accurately calculate the cap hit.


Anyways I hope this answers some of the questions. My goal is to get my cap sheet to match the one on Mr. Snyder's desk, to the penny. Unfortuantely, the limited info available out there makes it tough to come up with a cap chart that is 100% accurate. But don't worry, I'm working on it.

GO SKINS

[Defensewins]

Mr. CrazyCanuck
Thank you clearing this up.

Two questions:

1) How much cap room do we have left to sign our draft picks and possibly(?) pick up a June 1st d-lineman that might get cut? Basically what is left in our cap?

2) Is it still cold up there and have you seen Elvis?

[CrazyCanuck]

Originally Posted by hi-jinx

One thing I never found out about the CAP. Does incentives count against the cap? And do if so which year do they count against? Is there a limit on the percent of salary or amount of money can come from incentives?

From the Salary Cap FAQ page: http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/faq.asp

"How does the NFL Salary Cap treat cash incentives?

Answer: All incentives are included in team salary if they are "likely to be earned" (LTBE). LTBE incentives are performance levels that the player or team has reached in the previous year.

For example, if a quarterback threw twenty touchdowns last year and his incentive clause for this year is set at fifteen touchdowns, then this incentive is “likely to be earned.” Also, incentives that are in the sole control of the player, like non-guaranteed reporting bonuses and off-season workout and weight bonuses, are considered LTBE.

An impartial arbitrator will hear disputes between the owners and the players concerning what should be considered LTBE (especially for rookies or veterans who did not play in the prior year). Conversely, if a player did not reach the performance incentive in the previous year, the incentive is deemed "not likely to be earned" (NLTBE) and is not included in team salary.

To determine whether a clause is LTBE or NLTBE for Salary Cap purposes (i.e., not whether the player actually earned the incentive), it is necessary to look at the performance of the team in the prior season, not the current season.

For example, assume Player X receives an incentive bonus if he participates in 50% of the team’s offensive plays this season. Assume further that last season the team had 1,000 offensive plays. Therefore, as soon as Player X plays in 500 plays in the current season (or 50% of last year’s 1,000 plays), the incentive will be considered earned for Salary Cap purposes.

The same incentive is considered "not earned" if the same player in the current year only participated in one of the team’s first 502 offensive plays. In this situation, it would be impossible for the player to achieve the 50% incentive based on last year’s performance of 1,000 plays. It is important to remember that looking to last year’s performance level is only for Salary Cap purposes and will not affect the player's right to receive a bonus for his performance in the current year. "

[JWsleep]

Man, Canuck, it's good to have you back! I was beginning to wonder if you'd been hired by the skins FO, and were too busy to post for us!

Keep the helpful info coming!

Cheers!

[CrazyCanuck]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Mr. CrazyCanuck
Thank you clearing this up.

Two questions:

1) How much cap room do we have left to sign our draft picks and possibly(?) pick up a June 1st d-lineman that might get cut? Basically what is left in our cap?

2) Is it still cold up there and have you seen Elvis?

1) Right now we're $800K under the cap, plus another $2.7M when Trotter is cut, for a total of $3.5M.

2) No and yes.