Ukraine mega thread

[mooby]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

https://www.yahoo.com/news/photojour...090001901.html

Lots of really graphic photos from Bucha ...

war crimes.

"Never again will the world sit and watch ... "

Horrible. At a loss for words. Can't believe this is happening in 2022.

[CRedskinsRule]

I haven't been posting, mainly still done with the bickering here, but I also have to say, I can't believe the world hasn't stepped in militarily to protect Ukraine's sovereignty, or for the humanitarian tragedy that is going on. Mariupol should have been this generation's Berlin Airlift. UN Peacekeepers should have stepped in when Bucha pictures were shown around the world. And when the Russian tanks travel in open columns our drones, that were so effective at destroying Arab terrorists, and our stealth bombers should have been used to destroy those tanks before more civilian destruction happened.

It's a shame, but this era will be remembered as the prelude to WWIII, and future generations will wonder why Russia wasn't stopped at this point.

For the "but russia has nukes" response, There is no realistic way the defense establishment would allow the destruction of Russia for Putin's war. But they won't act until the world stands up and calls Putin out.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I haven't been posting, mainly still done with the bickering here, but I also have to say, I can't believe the world hasn't stepped in militarily to protect Ukraine's sovereignty, or for the humanitarian tragedy that is going on. Mariupol should have been this generation's Berlin Airlift. UN Peacekeepers should have stepped in when Bucha pictures were shown around the world. And when the Russian tanks travel in open columns our drones, that were so effective at destroying Arab terrorists, and our stealth bombers should have been used to destroy those tanks before more civilian destruction happened.

It's a shame, but this era will be remembered as the prelude to WWIII, and future generations will wonder why Russia wasn't stopped at this point.

For the "but russia has nukes" response, There is no realistic way the defense establishment would allow the destruction of Russia for Putin's war. But they won't act until the world stands up and calls Putin out.

The fear of a nuclear holocaust and destruction of the World will have that effect.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Giantone

The fear of a nuclear holocaust and destruction of the World will have that effect.

So you let a country that has clearly gone off the rails destroy and murder thousands or 10's of thousands of innocents. but they touch one inch of nato and all bets are off? There already is a holocaust going on, and the world stands witness to it.

We have invested trillions of dollars in our military over the last 30 years, we have built institutions (norad, Nato, and more) to prevent a successful nuclear attack. But I don't believe it would come to that in the least. Putin has used nuclear blackmail to a tee, but he also is facing more opposition within the military as well, there is no way the Russian military would launch a full nuclear strike if their territory isn't threatened.

We have more than the ability to stop the holocaust without stepping foot on Russian soil, and do it in a quick way. See Kuwait as a clear example of what a world's swift response should have looked like.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

So you let a country that has clearly gone off the rails destroy and murder thousands or 10's of thousands of innocents. but they touch one inch of nato and all bets are off? There already is a holocaust going on, and the world stands witness to it.

We have invested trillions of dollars in our military over the last 30 years, we have built institutions (norad, Nato, and more) to prevent a successful nuclear attack. But I don't believe it would come to that in the least. Putin has used nuclear blackmail to a tee, but he also is facing more opposition within the military as well, there is no way the Russian military would launch a full nuclear strike if their territory isn't threatened.

We have more than the ability to stop the holocaust without stepping foot on Russian soil, and do it in a quick way. See Kuwait as a clear example of what a world's swift response should have looked like.

If you swing and miss it would be a nuclear war.

To me, not supporting them with the air power agreement of moving planes to them from Poland is a major mistake.

Russia went for the throat and failed. They correctly fell back and will concentrate forces with established supply lines which are protected on the eastern front. They will encircle the very strong defense lines of the Ukraine eastern front. Once that’s done it’s over. Done.

[BaltimoreSkins]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

So you let a country that has clearly gone off the rails destroy and murder thousands or 10's of thousands of innocents. but they touch one inch of nato and all bets are off? There already is a holocaust going on, and the world stands witness to it.

We have invested trillions of dollars in our military over the last 30 years, we have built institutions (norad, Nato, and more) to prevent a successful nuclear attack. But I don't believe it would come to that in the least. Putin has used nuclear blackmail to a tee, but he also is facing more opposition within the military as well, there is no way the Russian military would launch a full nuclear strike if their territory isn't threatened.

We have more than the ability to stop the holocaust without stepping foot on Russian soil, and do it in a quick way. See Kuwait as a clear example of what a world's swift response should have looked like.

Ukraine don’t have oil. Therefore our inept leadership won’t give a shit. I should be posting in drunk thread. I am four deep into heavy seas double cannon and get hostile when drinking.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

So you let a country that has clearly gone off the rails destroy and murder thousands or 10's of thousands of innocents. but they touch one inch of nato and all bets are off? There already is a holocaust going on, and the world stands witness to it.

We have invested trillions of dollars in our military over the last 30 years, we have built institutions (norad, Nato, and more) to prevent a successful nuclear attack. But I don't believe it would come to that in the least. Putin has used nuclear blackmail to a tee, but he also is facing more opposition within the military as well, there is no way the Russian military would launch a full nuclear strike if their territory isn't threatened.

We have more than the ability to stop the holocaust without stepping foot on Russian soil, and do it in a quick way. See Kuwait as a clear example of what a world's swift response should have looked like.

Not saying I disagree with you about more help[ but you seem to want to sacrifice millions over this. A mad man has his fingers on the button to end the world, yes caution is advised.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by BaltimoreSkins

Ukraine don’t have oil. Therefore our inept leadership won’t give a shit. I should be posting in drunk thread. I am four deep into heavy seas double cannon and get hostile when drinking.

Either you keep cracking beers or move to liquor. That’s a direct order!

[BaltimoreSkins]

Sticking with beer tonight but kno hangover will be worse

[CRedskinsRule]

Hard to argue with the Ukranian Defense Minister:

https://thehill.com/policy/internati...s-have-failed/

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Giantone

Not saying I disagree with you about more help[ but you seem to want to sacrifice millions over this. A mad man has his fingers on the button to end the world, yes caution is advised.

There isn't a button that Putin has a finger on. Russia has a defense complex, similar to the US and they are not going to launch nukes over Ukraine any more than the US would. Fact is, Biden was scared and inept early on, and Putin took that weakness for what weakness always is in the geopolitical realm - an opening.

A strong response (my opinion stealth bombers taking out that 40 mile column of tanks) would have blunted Putin's aggression, and as long as we stayed out of attacking Russia proper, the world would have rallied behind US leadership (again, drawing on the Kuwait parallel)

Rule 1 of international order should be - you cannot invade a non-aggressive sovereign country

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

There isn't a button that Putin has a finger on. Russia has a defense complex, similar to the US and they are not going to launch nukes over Ukraine any more than the US would. Fact is, Biden was scared and inept early on, and Putin took that weakness for what weakness always is in the geopolitical realm - an opening.

A strong response (my opinion stealth bombers taking out that 40 mile column of tanks) would have blunted Putin's aggression, and as long as we stayed out of attacking Russia proper, the world would have rallied behind US leadership (again, drawing on the Kuwait parallel)

Rule 1 of international order should be - you cannot invade a non-aggressive sovereign country

I think you’re making the mistake of assuming Putin is a rational actor. He’s sending in conscripts with little logistical support. These aren’t the 2nd Rangers. He’s using his own as cannon fodder.

I’m as morally appalled as you are and I too want to see something done. But as long as Russia is being this ineffective there’s wisdom in letting Ukraine be the ones to give their lives grinding up the Russian war machine while NATO retains a position of strength and poise. Maintaining that readiness with no worse strategic position while Russia weakens itself points to an eye on the long game.

So far we can’t say the decision to supply Ukraine is leading to failure. If this does indeed lead to WW3 we can’t lose it, playing the long game is prudent.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I think you’re making the mistake of assuming Putin is a rational actor. He’s sending in conscripts with little logistical support. These aren’t the 2nd Rangers. He’s using his own as cannon fodder.

I’m as morally appalled as you are and I too want to see something done. But as long as Russia is being this ineffective there’s wisdom in letting Ukraine be the ones to give their lives grinding up the Russian war machine while NATO retains a position of strength and poise. Maintaining that readiness with no worse strategic position while Russia weakens itself points to an eye on the long game.

So far we can’t say the decision to supply Ukraine is leading to failure. If this does indeed lead to WW3 we can’t lose it, playing the long game is prudent.

I hear what you are saying, and I do agree to the extent that on the ground, Ukraine troops are doing amazing, and may maintain their own. Where my main disagreement is, is particularly the initial 40 mile column of tanks, which we could have helped take out with drones or stealth attacks that minimize the risk of full escalation, and more importantly the siege of Mariupol. My comparison of the Berlin Airlift is where I stand. send in UN planes, with supplies and rescue efforts, and put it on Russia to attack them.

Putin isn't a rational character by western standards, but he most definitely is by RealPolitik standards. He gambled that the nuclear bluff would hold the west at bay while his forces quickly drove in and took Kiev. Had Ukraine's army collapsed in those first 5 days, as Putin's intelligence said it would, they would have successfully taken over Ukraine. Once that intelligence proved false, he has played the cards he was dealt with depleted forces.

I would argue that nothing Putin has done, hasn't been telegraphed as his intentions, and the West's response to Chechnya, Georgia, and Crimea led to his RealPolitik belief that he could act with impunity in Ukraine.

Edit : Defining Rational Actor

What is the rational actor model theory?
The most widely cited foreign policy analysis approach is the rational actor model. This approach assumes that the main actor in foreign policy is a rational individual who can be relied on to make informed, calculated decisions that maximize value and perceived benefits to the state

Western Standard - actions are assumed to follow moral and ethical considerations as well as greater global welfare
(UN - 93 countries supported suspending Russia from the Human Rights council - theoretically supporting a Western Standard of rational actor)

Realpolitik Standard - a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.
(UN - 82 countries either voted against or abstained in the same vote)

The world doesn't revolve around Western Morality politics, and a good portion of it actually rejects it outright.

[Giantone]

Putin has proven he is anything but rational, as much as I respect your opinion many superior Military minds disagree with your theory on whether putin would push the nuclear button and yes we all know it's not one button but as you pointed out the russian Military complex will do what putin says, if he says launch them , they will.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Giantone

Putin has proven he is anything but rational, as much as I respect your opinion many superior Military minds disagree with your theory on whether putin would push the nuclear button and yes we all know it's not one button but as you pointed out the russian Military complex will do what putin says, if he says launch them , they will.

He has acted incredibly rationally if you ignore western ethics - which Putin openly mocks. His stated objective from early 2000's is to undo the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century, and restore Russian/Soviet Supremacy. That can be achieved by nuclear bluffs (they are very effective against Western Democracies) and special military operations. He is not crazy, he simply has different ethical standards (in the West's view he has no ethical standards) which allow all force that preserves or rebuilds the Russian greatness. I still believe he will use tactical nukes in western Ukraine at some point to interdict Western supply chains. But using ballistic nukes is a different ballgame, and that WOULD lead to the destruction of Russia. Which is not in his game plan.