All things Middle East related

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Sometimes, I think the warnings are just an additional psychological warfare.
A) it reinforces the fact that the Palestinians can't stop it, which is humiliating and degrading
B) it rarely affords enough time for true evacuations, so you have x number of minutes waiting whether or not the bombs will come. For example they demolished a 12 story building a few weeks ago with 15 minute warning. I am sure that the Palestinians had plenty of time from that to have an orderly and systematic exit from their residence. Heck, I evacuate all my belongings in 10minutes every other Saturday - just for fun [/sarc]

I mean imagine a burglar so confident that he was untouchable that he tells you he is going to come in, take all your money and kill your wife in 20 minutes. You would do everything you could to make sure he couldn't. But suppose he had done it to every other house in your neighborhood, and never been stopped, or arrested. Then maybe you just feel terror that it's happening to you this time. And maybe if a group of people tell you, we can't stop the burglar but we could hurt his family, or his community, maybe you don't consider it as wrong to support that group as an outside viewer might. Maybe you just want vengeance and outsiders that don't even share your basic life views can piss in the wind.
Maybe.

Lol. Nice spin, that warnings are bad. You should start a political career.

Sure, the Israelis should give a week's notice. Give plenty of time for Palestinians to call U Haul, arrange to turn off the utilities, etc. It's not like this is a shooting war or anything.

Oh, wait, the Palestinians' own government has recommended they ignore the warnings.

So, what do you recommend the Israelis do? Bear in mind everything done already in the past.

Your analogy is flawed. The homeowner in your example has pledged death to a group of people worshiping a different god than him. And has fired wildly at said people across the street. But sure, it's the people across the street that are bad for not giving enough warning, before firing back. Right?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Lol. Nice spin, that warnings are bad. You should start a political career.

Sure, the Israelis should give a week's notice. Give plenty of time for Palestinians to call U Haul, arrange to turn off the utilities, etc. It's not like this is a shooting war or anything.

Oh, wait, the Palestinians' own government has recommended they ignore the warnings.

So, what do you recommend the Israelis do? Bear in mind everything done already in the past.

Your analogy is flawed. The homeowner in your example has pledged death to a group of people worshiping a different god than him. And has fired wildly at said people across the street. But sure, it's the people across the street that are bad for not giving enough warning, before firing back. Right?

Sorry, but this goes for both sides.

• They both hate each other,
• They both worship a different God
• They both believe the other side should be abolished (Israel being under the Talmud, not accepting the New Testament, would believe that they have to wipe everyone out just as the example of Jericho that I posted earlier displayed)
• They both fire across the street,
• One side has a relatively impenetrable defense, and has lost nearly no innocents in the last 15 years
• One side can't protect themselves from attack, and has lost thousands of innocents over the last 15 years.

Of course they recommend to ignore the warnings. THEY CAN'T PROTECT THEMSELVES ANYWAYS. Look through some psych warfare ops, and through books on domination. There are psychological and emotional attacks far more crippling then a rocket, especially when used on mass targets. Helplessness, and control play a large part in all of that. I will admit that I am kind of fascinated by this subject right now, and have looked into basic books on it, so I am certainly keen to see that perspective, BUT, that said, when you look at it from that angle, the warnings, soft bombs, et al, very easily fit that pattern of warfare.


One internet argument I hate, is so what should x do. I'm not sitting in the NSA war room, like JR said earlier, let me - a Redskins fan on an internet board - dictate the policies of the whole world, cuz like I'm just that good. NOT.

My point isn't to describe a new world peace path, but to point out that at the very least, attacks on innocents, by all sides, should be held to judgement and international outrage. And if the Hamas total innocent deaths were 30, and Israel's were thousands, I would be saying that Hamas should be condemned. I did say that in the late 90's. But now, Hamas attacks are as ineffective as throwing stones against a Giant, well if you aren't Israel - that strategy works for them.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Re-read what I posted, NCSkins, so you don't look so foolish next time. Where the hell did you get the warped idea that I don't know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza?

But thanks for posting links that the two territories are trying to work together.

If Eygpt started rocket attacks on Israel, how peaceful do you think things there would be?

When you get more informed, maybe we can have a more productive discussion. Right now you are lagging way behind the times.

You still have avoided that fact that Israel had planned to steal land from the Palestinians that weren't even involved in the Gaza conflict.

LOL. I'll just laugh at the rhetoric you just spewed. It was obvious by your comment trying to justify Israel's land grab because you thought it was some concession for the Gaza conflict. (as noted in your quote)

That whole withdrawal from Gaza thing didn't work out. As long as rockets and terrorism continue, let the Israelis expand as they see fit.

Since no rockets or attacks have come from the West Bank, exactly how is it you see Israel has a right to land grab from the West Bank?

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

You still have avoided that fact that Israel had planned to steal land from the Palestinians that weren't even involved in the Gaza conflict.

LOL. I'll just laugh at the rhetoric you just spewed. It was obvious by your comment trying to justify Israel's land grab because you thought it was some concession for the Gaza conflict. (as noted in your quote)



Since no rockets or attacks have come from the West Bank, exactly how is it you see Israel has a right to land grab from the West Bank?

NCSkins, you're displaying your ignorance again. If a direct link is what you need, here you go:

Monday 30 June 2014 - Bodies of three missing Israeli teenagers found in West Bank

Naftali Frankel, Gilad Shaar and Eyal Yifrach were kidnapped while hitchhiking back from their religious schools

And the land isn't stolen, it's been in dispute. Guess which side would rather launch rockets than make a permanent peace deal?

Like I said, you are way behind recent events, NCSkins. Quit while you are behind.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Sorry, but this goes for both sides.

• They both hate each other,
• They both worship a different God
• They both believe the other side should be abolished (Israel being under the Talmud, not accepting the New Testament, would believe that they have to wipe everyone out just as the example of Jericho that I posted earlier displayed)
• They both fire across the street,
• One side has a relatively impenetrable defense, and has lost nearly no innocents in the last 15 years
• One side can't protect themselves from attack, and has lost thousands of innocents over the last 15 years.

Of course they recommend to ignore the warnings. THEY CAN'T PROTECT THEMSELVES ANYWAYS. Look through some psych warfare ops, and through books on domination. There are psychological and emotional attacks far more crippling then a rocket, especially when used on mass targets. Helplessness, and control play a large part in all of that. I will admit that I am kind of fascinated by this subject right now, and have looked into basic books on it, so I am certainly keen to see that perspective, BUT, that said, when you look at it from that angle, the warnings, soft bombs, et al, very easily fit that pattern of warfare.


One internet argument I hate, is so what should x do. I'm not sitting in the NSA war room, like JR said earlier, let me - a Redskins fan on an internet board - dictate the policies of the whole world, cuz like I'm just that good. NOT.

My point isn't to describe a new world peace path, but to point out that at the very least, attacks on innocents, by all sides, should be held to judgement and international outrage. And if the Hamas total innocent deaths were 30, and Israel's were thousands, I would be saying that Hamas should be condemned. I did say that in the late 90's. But now, Hamas attacks are as ineffective as throwing stones against a Giant, well if you aren't Israel - that strategy works for them.

Gee, why did Isreal withdraw from Gaza, rather than push the Palestinians into the sea?

So are you really saying Jericho being sacked over a thousand years ago equals this:

On the Destruction of Israel:

-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)



The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:

----------------------------------------

'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one

can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'

(Article 11)



'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the

Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)



The Call to Jihad:

------------------

'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the

individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation,

it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)



'Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses

everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the

call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will

reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is

achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about.'

(Article 33)



Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:

-------------------------------------------

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)



Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:

----------------------------------------------

'Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle

[against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The

Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar

agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason,

and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act.' (Article 32)


The rest of your argument is equally bunk. Since when does winning a military confrontation automatically invalidate itself?

[CRedskinsRule]

At some point in internet arguments it becomes obvious that one is banging his head. That post was that point. I acknowledged Hamas wants to destroy Israel, yet you emphasize that when no one disagrees with that part of your premise. You refuse to see Israel as equally so motivated fine, I say that we live in a world where Israel is surrounded by Egypt and Jordan who would intervene if Israel had ever pushed Palestinians into the sea. So instead they kill as many innocents as they can and still have you and others so blinded touting their virtues.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

NCSkins, you're displaying your ignorance again. If a direct link is what you need, here you go:

Monday 30 June 2014 - Bodies of three missing Israeli teenagers found in West Bank

Naftali Frankel, Gilad Shaar and Eyal Yifrach were kidnapped while hitchhiking back from their religious schools

And the land isn't stolen, it's been in dispute. Guess which side would rather launch rockets than make a permanent peace deal?

Like I said, you are way behind recent events, NCSkins. Quit while you are behind.

You are grasping at straws. Big time.

So how many rockets have been fired from the West Bank. You STILL haven't answered that question yet.

In fact, you've side stepped and posted about the 3 teenagers murdered. Also, the teenagers killed is another fiasco that the Israeli government knew they were dead, yet acted as if they were still "missing" and used that to roam through the Palestinian villages breaking into people's homes and arresting people. (that had nothing to do with it)

Back to the story. How many rockets have been fired from the West Bank by the Palestinian Fatah?

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

You are grasping at straws. Big time.

So how many rockets have been fired from the West Bank. You STILL haven't answered that question yet.

In fact, you've side stepped and posted about the 3 teenagers murdered. Also, the teenagers killed is another fiasco that the Israeli government knew they were dead, yet acted as if they were still "missing" and used that to roam through the Palestinian villages breaking into people's homes and arresting people. (that had nothing to do with it)

Back to the story. How many rockets have been fired from the West Bank by the Palestinian Fatah?

Grasping at what straws? You have blatantly engaged in a strawman argument here. Why are you asking me how many rockets have been fired from the West Bank? Have I ever said rockets were fired from the West Bank? Are YOU confused which is the West Bank and which is Gaza Strip?

You did ask me if any rocket or other attacks had been launched from West Bank. I told you about one: 3 murdered teens found dead just recently. And yes, it was a terrorist act. LINK

And oh, look. Hamas claimed responsibility, even though the teens were kidnapped on the West Bank.

Where the hell did you get the idea that the Israeli government already knew the teens were dead, while they were searching for them? Citation or link needed.

I have sidestepped nothing. You tried a blatant strawman argument, and displayed some pretty lazy ignorance on your part, on this issue.



BTW - Lost in the stupidity in some arguments this thread, just to bring up something I and CRedskinsRule seem to have forgotten about the warnings Israel gives before targeting buildings. The Israelis are targeting buildings where they think Hamas is hiding weapons. Buildings that Hamas has hid weapons like homes, schools, tunnels (built with how much construction material?). Giving enough warning time for terrorists to move all the weapons out would be pretty dumb.

edit 2: Another thin, CRedskinsrule. Interesting point about psychological warfare being used this conflict. Like the rockets Hamas has been firing a long time, despite the Israelis doing a pretty good job of minimizing casualties. Another aspect of Hamas' attacks that shouldn't get overlooked this discussion. Kinda sad, that Israel warning residents to evacuate from imminent attack, and Hamas firing indiscriminately at Isrealis, might be considered morally equivalent, but I guess if you blur your focus enough, everything looks the same. Kind of like saying we were as bad in Iraq as ISIS is now. Both groups blow up buildings and shoot people too. Or should finer distinctions be drawn?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

...Giving enough warning time for terrorists to move all the weapons out would be pretty dumb.

I am trying to be done, but this statements goes directly to the heart of the warnings being more for psych warfare than effective warning. Any effective warning would give the terrorist segment of the area time to flee (and they would be the most able to flee, leaving only innocents behind).

I don't know about anyone else, but I am not making Hamas out to be some sainted organization that is simply misunderstood. Their roots are founded in terrorism. AND I can certainly accept that Hamas bears some level (not 100%, but not 0 either) of accountability for the civilian deaths. But Israel needs to be accountable for it's acts too, and while the enemy is hiding bombs among civilians, that too seems to be an obvious given when you factor in the size of the region, the general support for palestinian organizations vs support for the israeli state, and the limited isolated areas in gaza. It's not like they have a Hamas Air Force Base, just outside of the population centers. (If they did, Israel would have destroyed it, and I would accept that as a consequence of battle)

And I don't maintain that it is an easy undertaking for Israel, but I DO maintain citing random ineffective rocket launches, which in 15 years have done little in the way of effective attacks, as somehow a valid rationale for launching attacks over those same 15 years that have killed and wounded 10's of 1000's of innocents, and minimal military gains, is much closer to mass murder, and not remotely something that can be cited as a military victory.

I will try to put my position (what would I, the fat internet redskin fan that spends far too much time debating topics I can never impact, do):
As the US, I would tell Israel the Gaza airstrikes need to stop immediately, restitution and rebuilding for UN and obvious civilian buildings, ie schools and senior housing, would come out of US aid to Israel. I would put a motion for a 2 state solution before the UN Charter immediately, and set up UN peacekeeping forces to monitor all borders. I would make it clear that the US position is that both Palestinian and Israel have a right to exist, and must find a way to acknowledge peaceful coexistence. I would seek Russian, Chinese, Jordanian, and Egyptian agreement on these principles. I would put forward a no tolerance proposal for a joint tribunal in Jerusalem consisting of 2 Israeli, 2 Palestinian and 3 neutral (Swiss, Chinese, and/or South African/German delegations) arbitrator where all "war crime" type acts, terrorist kidnappings, bombing of civilian schools, etc will be brought forward. Punishment would be determined by the law governing the victim(s). All of these things would be presented to Egypt and Israel as conditions for accepting US Aid in the future.
Further, if Israel refuses to buy in, we let them know that we will abstain from any future security council votes on Israel's right to exist, and at the same time we let Hamas/Palestinian organizations know that with their buy in, we will sponsor an equivalent right to exist act in the UN Security council as Israel currently has.

See solved, and all I had to do was stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

... [The Hamas] roots are founded in terrorism. ...

You mean like the Israelis? I mean, it worked for Menachim Begin, why not the Hamas?

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I am trying to be done, but this statements goes directly to the heart of the warnings being more for psych warfare than effective warning. Any effective warning would give the terrorist segment of the area time to flee (and they would be the most able to flee, leaving only innocents behind).

Sorry I wasn't clear. I said "Giving enough warning time for terrorists to move all the weapons out would be pretty dumb." But this does bring up another macabre point. Who is making innocents stay behind in these buildings, after warnings have been issued?

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I don't know about anyone else, but I am not making Hamas out to be some sainted organization that is simply misunderstood. Their roots are founded in terrorism. AND I can certainly accept that Hamas bears some level (not 100%, but not 0 either) of accountability for the civilian deaths. But Israel needs to be accountable for it's acts too, and while the enemy is hiding bombs among civilians, that too seems to be an obvious given when you factor in the size of the region, the general support for palestinian organizations vs support for the israeli state, and the limited isolated areas in gaza. It's not like they have a Hamas Air Force Base, just outside of the population centers. (If they did, Israel would have destroyed it, and I would accept that as a consequence of battle)

When Hamas gets to the extreme of telling its supposed people to ignore the warnings, that's beyond mere consequences, that's direct responsibility for deaths as much as the guys dropping the missiles.

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

And I don't maintain that it is an easy undertaking for Israel, but I DO maintain citing random ineffective rocket launches, which in 15 years have done little in the way of effective attacks, as somehow a valid rationale for launching attacks over those same 15 years that have killed and wounded 10's of 1000's of innocents, and minimal military gains, is much closer to mass murder, and not remotely something that can be cited as a military victory.

I'm sure to the people being attacked both sides of the border, it's a military matter. Who says the rockets are ineffective, now that the Psy Ops aspect has been brought up? And which side is making an effort to reduce civilian casualties, while trying to strike at actual combatants?

Closer to mass murder? Than what? And which side are you accusing, the side that murders opposing factions and suspected informants. Or the first world military that takes more steps to reduce civilian casualties than we did in Iraq?

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I will try to put my position (what would I, the fat internet redskin fan that spends far too much time debating topics I can never impact, do):
As the US, I would tell Israel the Gaza airstrikes need to stop immediately, restitution and rebuilding for UN and obvious civilian buildings, ie schools and senior housing, would come out of US aid to Israel. I would put a motion for a 2 state solution before the UN Charter immediately, and set up UN peacekeeping forces to monitor all borders. I would make it clear that the US position is that both Palestinian and Israel have a right to exist, and must find a way to acknowledge peaceful coexistence. I would seek Russian, Chinese, Jordanian, and Egyptian agreement on these principles. I would put forward a no tolerance proposal for a joint tribunal in Jerusalem consisting of 2 Israeli, 2 Palestinian and 3 neutral (Swiss, Chinese, and/or South African/German delegations) arbitrator where all "war crime" type acts, terrorist kidnappings, bombing of civilian schools, etc will be brought forward. Punishment would be determined by the law governing the victim(s). All of these things would be presented to Egypt and Israel as conditions for accepting US Aid in the future.
Further, if Israel refuses to buy in, we let them know that we will abstain from any future security council votes on Israel's right to exist, and at the same time we let Hamas/Palestinian organizations know that with their buy in, we will sponsor an equivalent right to exist act in the UN Security council as Israel currently has.

See solved, and all I had to do was stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Israel bought into all the above. They just aren't going to surrender everything until the side that rejected an Egyptian proposed ceasefire, uses said UN buildings to store weapons, and keeps indiscriminately shooting rockets over the border, starts buying into it.

[CRedskinsRule]

amazing...

I'm out

[Chico23231]

can we change the title to the thread "all things middle east retarded"

[That Guy]

again,

deaths to palestine rockets/mortars since 2001: 33
palestinian deaths due to israeli invasion since july 2014: 1340+
number of palestinians in israeli jails: 7000

years since last invasion of palestine: almost 6

majority of rocket attacks aren't even from hamas. (and again hamas isn't a great thing).

land grabbed by israel without compensation: a lot

israel was founded by terrorists. the arabs got along well with the brits etc, then (future israeli leadership) started a mad bombing campaign and the brits didn't want to put up with it any more, so they left. the palestinians weren't exactly pleased that the allied powered gave away their land without ever talking to them about it though.

been an issue ever since.

and saying israeli is doing more to eliminate civilian casualties than the US did in iraq is you just making things up. the main killer of iraqis was other iraqis, and that was a conflict where both sides had actual armies and there were lots of independent standing militias. i don't know why you keep harping on those warnings, cause the death toll is pretty terrible and one sided, so i don't see how dropping some paper can allow you to call it perfectly justified.

then you go on to talk about random quotes from hamas (which is not the unified voice of palestinians) as if that also somehow justifies 1300+ dead palestinians in the last 2 months... which is 608,400% more deaths per month than the rocket/mortar attacks (and that's only from the current action, not counting ANYTHING from the last 13 years).

let's get real.

[tshile]

Originally Posted by That Guy

again,

deaths to palestine rockets/mortars since 2001: 33
palestinian deaths due to israeli invasion since july 2014: 1340+
number of palestinians in israeli jails: 7000

You see this quite often... it implies that because a side is technologically inferior to another, the dominating side has to just take shit from them.

the terrorists we've been fighting are equally as inferior, and the ratio of kills to deaths is much more in our favor.

would you agree with the implication that it is us doing something wrong?

i'm not exactly a pro-Israeli person, I'm really not. But when you choose to shoot rockets into another country and you get your ass kicked for it then you deserve what you got. the fact that their rockets aren't as good as the other guys is irrelevant in my opinion.