Ultimate Building Blocks: NFC East

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by D'BOYZ

look it's neither Dallas has a good building Block surroundig Ware heck Dallas was leader in sacks last year and the 8th best defense they needed improvemnet in the secondary we all new that. we needed to get ridd of Roy Williams and we did and the CB's we drafted last year are pretty good.

Still the biggest problem with the defense is over confidence and lack of consistency they play great for a few games then they believe they're the best defense out there and get humiliated by Baltimore and the Eagles... What I believe it lacks is leadership and a cold head... not talent.

Now Sluggs please he's in the best or second best defense in the league you can't argue that and still he can't post Ware type of numbers. 6 years in the league 40 sacks in his first 4 years and 30.5 in the past 4 going backwards he's only 26 he's been in the league 2 more years than Ware and has half a sack less. please, in one of the best defenses in the league and they only ask him to put pressure.... He's WAAAY Overated he had 5 in 2007 playing every game that's less than 1 sack every 3 games.

So you're convinced then that the Cowboys will be an improved defensive unit this year? I mean, you're arguing that Ware makes people around him better, that he's irreplacable to the team and such. I assume you're then saying that last year's unit was full of underachievers (Henry, Williams, Ellis, DC Stewart) that held him down and have since been outed.

So essentially, if the Cowboys defense isn't improved this year, a lot of the blame has to fall on Ware not being who you think he is? Generally speaking, of course.

[D'BOYZ]

So you think Orakpo without doing anything in the league deserves to be more on that list that Ware the runnerup for DPOY REALLY? Funny

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by D'BOYZ

Now Sluggs please he's in the best or second best defense in the league you can't argue that and still he can't post Ware type of numbers. 6 years in the league 40 sacks in his first 4 years and 30.5 in the past 4 going backwards he's only 26 he's been in the league 2 more years than Ware and has half a sack less. please, in one of the best defenses in the league and they only ask him to put pressure.... He's WAAAY Overated he had 5 in 2007 playing every game that's less than 1 sack every 3 games.

Suggs is THE complete NFL 3-4 OLB. He's the prototype.

Though, since you're a Cowboys' fan, I won't bother to question your authority on the concept of going backwards. I can only wish to one day understand that concept like you do.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by D'BOYZ

So you think Orakpo without doing anything in the league deserves to be more on that list that Ware the runnerup for DPOY REALLY? Funny

Nah. Orakpo made my list because I wanted a prospect on my building blocks list, since neither Haynesworth or Tuck is young. Not because I think he's entitled to be a better player than Ware. Not at all what I was saying.

I think he can become a better player than Ware, but it will take time. Thus, you know, the point of a list about "building blocks".

[D'BOYZ]

So you're convinced then that the Cowboys will be an improved defensive unit this year? I mean, you're arguing that Ware makes people around him better, that he's irreplaceable to the team and such. I assume you're then saying that last year's unit was full of underachievers (Henry, Williams, Ellis, DC Stewart) that held him down and have since been outed.

So essentially, if the Cowboys defense isn't improved this year, a lot of the blame has to fall on Ware not being who you think he is? Generally speaking, of course.

I don't think the defense is going to be better because of Ware I do believe they're going to be better because of the changes that were made. Stewart Please the defense got better last years when Wade starting calling plays so that's an easy one.

Getting rid of Ellis who was just used in pressure plays and give Spencer the opportunity after learning for 2 years to be the other OLB yeah I think will get stronger apply more pressure and better. Now Safety Getting rid of Roy and getting Sensabaugh is a huge improvement in coverage one that will let the CB play more man and less zone like we did the previous years. I liked Henry but he was getting old and losing speed and our young cb's of last year Scandrick and Jenkins proved they can handle the load and if they don't get in the 2nd year slump they should get better plus a healthy Newman he makes a huge difference.

Now losing Canty was big but getting Olshansky is almost a wash Canty had tons of potential but he could disappear for games.... if he played to his potential man Canty could be one of the best in the game but he hasn't.

The Defense should be better younger and faster but that's bering injuries that's what you never know.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Nah. Orakpo made my list because I wanted a prospect on my building blocks list, since neither Haynesworth or Tuck is young. Not because I think he's entitled to be a better player than Ware. Not at all what I was saying.

I think he can become a better player than Ware, but it will take time. Thus, you know, the point of a list about "building blocks".

How old do you think Tuck is?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by D'BOYZ

I don't think the defense is going to be better because of Ware I do believe they're going to be better because of the changes that were made. Stewart Please the defense got better last years when Wade starting calling plays so that's an easy one.

Getting rid of Ellis who was just used in pressure plays and give Spencer the opportunity after learning for 2 years to be the other OLB yeah I think will get stronger apply more pressure and better. Now Safety Getting rid of Roy and getting Sensabaugh is a huge improvement in coverage one that will let the CB play more man and less zone like we did the previous years. I liked Henry but he was getting old and losing speed and our young cb's of last year Scandrick and Jenkins proved they can handle the load and if they don't get in the 2nd year slump they should get better plus a healthy Newman he makes a huge difference.

Now losing Canty was big but getting Olshansky is almost a wash Canty had tons of potential but he could disappear for games.... if he played to his potential man Canty could be one of the best in the game but he hasn't.

The Defense should be better younger and faster but that's bering injuries that's what you never know.

On Canty, I was kinda wondering what the Cowboys insiders felt about the team not attempting to retain him. There must have been some reason, because the Redskins were going to go get him before Haynesworth signed, and people have lauded the Giants for making that move. Canty seems like a guy who has some great years ahead of him, but my perception has been that the Cowboys never felt like they needed to retain him.

Olshansky is incredibly mediocre, so certainly you won't get an improvement there, but again, if Canty had a knack for being disappointing, then it's probably not a downgrade.

Overall, I just think that if your defense improves this year, the improvement almost has to come from internal sources. I mean, the talking up of Sensabaugh is a great example of how replacing an overrated player who cannot cover a lick with a scrub level replacement who can't cover a lick gives the illusion of improvement, when the only problem that was fixed is that you aren't paying Williams' salary anymore.

So those internal sources: Ratliff, Spencer, Newman, Jenkins, Scandrick, B. James, Spears, and yes, Ware, they will improve. But if these guys are just not great players, or can't do anything more than they have been doing, all the coaching changes and meaningless personnel swaps in the world aren't going to improve that defense.

I think that was the difference between the offseasons of the Redskins and the Cowboys. The Redskins got measurably better on defense, while the Cowboys ran in place (while, admittedly, shedding some dead weight they had built up). Im confident that the 2009 standings will bear this out.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Giantone

How old do you think Tuck is?

He's 27, and will turn 28 before the season, correct?

Correction, he's 26. Missed by a year and a half. Oh well, Haynesworth is who I thought he was.

Justin Tuck Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

[Rajmahal33]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Calling Samuel the best CB in the division by far is an embarrassment. He's not better than Newman. He's not better than Rogers. He's probably not even better than Corey Webster, although I'm not going to go that far. He might not be the best CB on his own team.

DeMarcus Ware is painfully overrated. There were like 4 games last year where he may or may not have been dressed, I don't know. He's not great against the run, and a lot of his 20 sacks were concentrated in games against vastly inferior competition. Oh, and when the Cowboys needed one win in their last two games to make the playoffs, Ware got one sack, in the first quarter of the first game. He's not, say, Shawne Merriman or Justin Tuck good. Not even close.

I would take Samuel over either Newman or Rogers in a HEARTBEAT (contracts ignored)...That Corey Webster comparison has to be a joke right?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Rajmahal33

I would take Samuel over either Newman or Rogers in a HEARTBEAT (contracts ignored)...That Corey Webster comparison has to be a joke right?

Even ignoring contracts, why?

I don't have a lot of personal data regarding Corey Webster, but I have Giants-followers who are rarely full of it who really think they've got a shutdown type guy in Webster (and not Aaron Ross, fwiw). So that's why I'm not confident enough to go that far.

I've had more than enough Samuel to know where the guy stands. And each time I watch him, I never feel like I'm in the presence of greatness. I think, for every route that Samuel reads perfectly, makes a play on the ball, and turns it into six points, there's three or four plays he just misses for no really good reason. One of them cost the Pats a super bowl for instance, and another cost them a trip to the super bowl. This year, he missed an easy INT against us that could have given them the game with a decent return.

Basically, what Samuel has done in his career that makes the highlight reels isn't always an indicator of his effect on a game.

I think Samuel is a legit No. 1, but clearly, so are Rogers, Newman, and maybe Webster as well. Mosley pointed out Newman is close, but he didn't even mention Rogers or Webster, which is problematic if you are defending Samuel as the best CB in the division. At least identify all the alternatives.

[dmvskinzfan08]

Originally Posted by Nflnick11

Umm Samuel is the best corner in the division, simply because he comes up big in the playoffs, like intercepting tarvaris Jackson for a TD, then manning(s) he's physical, can play all types of coverages the whole deal, Newman isn't even in the same convorsation as him, same with rogers, if I were creating my own defense I would have nnamdi asomougha on one side and Samuel on the other side

You know what. I am going out on a limb. I think D Hall is the best CB in our division (talent wise). I think he is going to suprise a lot of people this year and make the prowl bowl. I also have him for 6+ interception. Write it down...

[Nflnick11]

Originally Posted by dmvskinzfan08

You know what. I am going out on a limb. I think D Hall is the best CB in our division (talent wise). I think he is going to suprise a lot of people this year and make the prowl bowl. I also have him for 6+ interception. Write it down...

Being the die hard skins fan I am, I hope you do prove me wrong and you got balls saying that halls better than Samuel and will be a pro bowler, but the reason he isn't better than Samuel is cause Samuel is a shut down corner no matter what defense he's in where as hall is a great corner in some defenses and a crappy corner in bump and run coverages...one game hall will shut down the opposing receiver the next game he'll get picked on a lot or burned a lot; yes I know all corners get beat, but some games I've seen hall get beat several times...Samuel not so much only against Fitzgerald, but of course Fitzgerald is the best WR in the NFL IMO, and all corners get abused by him...

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

On Canty, I was kinda wondering what the Cowboys insiders felt about the team not attempting to retain him. There must have been some reason, because the Redskins were going to go get him before Haynesworth signed, and people have lauded the Giants for making that move. Canty seems like a guy who has some great years ahead of him, but my perception has been that the Cowboys never felt like they needed to retain him.

Olshansky is incredibly mediocre, so certainly you won't get an improvement there, but again, if Canty had a knack for being disappointing, then it's probably not a downgrade.

Overall, I just think that if your defense improves this year, the improvement almost has to come from internal sources. I mean, the talking up of Sensabaugh is a great example of how replacing an overrated player who cannot cover a lick with a scrub level replacement who can't cover a lick gives the illusion of improvement, when the only problem that was fixed is that you aren't paying Williams' salary anymore.

So those internal sources: Ratliff, Spencer, Newman, Jenkins, Scandrick, B. James, Spears, and yes, Ware, they will improve. But if these guys are just not great players, or can't do anything more than they have been doing, all the coaching changes and meaningless personnel swaps in the world aren't going to improve that defense.

I think that was the difference between the offseasons of the Redskins and the Cowboys. The Redskins got measurably better on defense, while the Cowboys ran in place (while, admittedly, shedding some dead weight they had built up). Im confident that the 2009 standings will bear this out.

No doubt. The 2009 standings will CLEARLY bear this out. Wade is a good defensive coach, but he can only work with what he has. The Redskins got better, the Cowgirls didn't, and they weren't that great last year.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

He's 27, and will turn 28 before the season, correct?

Correction, he's 26. Missed by a year and a half. Oh well, Haynesworth is who I thought he was.

Justin Tuck Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

That's all I was getting at ,he still has a alot of life ahead of him as a player.

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

If Mosley is asking the question I think he is, I'm taking Campbell at QB before anyone in the division. If he's instead asking me to take the best, established player, well, then I'm still not taking Eli.

2. Tuck, for sure
3. Haynesworth, for sure
4. Orakpo, for sure
5. Jason Peters
6. Brian Westbrook
7. Felix Jones
8. Jason Witten
9. Carlos Rogers
10. I'm going to pass on DeMarcus Ware and go with DeSean Jackson

Your homerism is showing.

Campbell has accomplished the least of any starting QB in the division, his own management tried to replace him twice in the offseason, and you would pick him as a building block over Eli Manning who led his team to a Super Bowl victory? That makes no sense to me.

Orakpo? Give me a break! He hasn't played a down in the NFL. Yet, you can conveniently ignore twenty sacks by DeMarcus Ware? Again, that makes no sense to me.

I would not consider putting Carlos Rogers on that list until he learns how to catch the ball. He missed on some big play opportunities last season by dropping makeable interceptions.