blow it up

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

.......and thats because we are always looking for the "blue chip", "blue collar" player. we have no one who is a professional at locating talent. Getting us true talent throught he draft. ...or is it more we have no one who is capable of training the new talent to due their jobs?

like someone else said....one draft will not change the dimension of this team. We need several drafts. and starting with both lines is going to be very important. It's ok to have one or two "blue chip, blue collar" players on the team to fill in on a game by game basis but not accross the whole line. On both sides of the ball. We have second rate players playing second rate ball and injuries have topped it off.

i mostly agree with you and alot of what is being said here by reasonable minds but have we done that bad in drafting in the 1st or 2nd round? what O lineman should we have drafted over ST, rogers or landry? only poor high draft choices weve had have been taylor jacobs (i wanted mike doss so you have to question anything i think), ramsey (with qbs you take your chances and keep taking them till you find your man) and possibly JC. am i missing some 1st or 2nd round pick that has been a bust for us? (rocky maybe?) should we have drafted some O lineman over cooley in the 3rd?

go skins!!

[BrunellMVP?]

how do we move forward? how do we evoke change?
What "change" needs to be done? Personally, I think we need to limit the owner's influence on the team (to the extent possible) this includes getting him out of the draft room, and removing his pal Vinny Cerrato. We also need a GM. We also need better scouting (or to listen to the ones we have).

We as fans need to take a stand. We cannot tolerate more of the same...
we've seen this show before, the ending is decidedly disappointing.

We've got one more home game- how will we voice our disapproval? I'm not suggesting booing, but there should certainly be a COORDINATED EFFORT to voice our displeasure.
Maybe we should ALL forgo redskin colors and wear black (signifying both the death of the season and hopefully the figurative death of cerrato). Ideas?

[Rock Your Face]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

i mostly agree with you and alot of what is being said here by reasonable minds but have we done that bad in drafting in the 1st or 2nd round? what O lineman should we have drafted over ST, rogers or landry? only poor high draft choices weve had have been taylor jacobs (i wanted mike doss so you have to question anything i think), ramsey (with qbs you take your chances and keep taking them till you find your man) and possibly JC. am i missing some 1st or 2nd round pick that has been a bust for us? (rocky maybe?) should we have drafted some O lineman over cooley in the 3rd?

go skins!!

A fair point, but, you draft Merriman instead of Rogers and you re-sign Ryan Clark so you don't have to spend a pick on Landry. Jacobs was obviously a joke, and the three 2nd round picks this year have been awful. You want receivers? Fine, just don't waste a 2nd round pick on a 3rd damn tight end when its arguably already your 2nd deepest position (after RB).

This is the whole point w/ the 'Skins, individually, each move does not look that bad when viewed in a vacuum. But when you look at the big picture, you constantly see the 'Skins having to make moves that are solely to compensate for past mistakes, instead of moving forward or building depth. Some examples:

(1) The previously mentioned drafting of Landry, which was necessitated by the terrible signing of Archuletta, instead of re-signing Clark.

(2) Not using a draft pick this year on a DE, when there were plenty available. What happens? Daniels rips up his knee and we ship out a 2nd rounder for Taylor.

(3) Signing Brandon Lloyd, so we then have to spend 2 picks on receivers.

[KI Skins Fan]

I think Zorn is in over his head as a HC and that he has lost the hearts and minds of many of the players. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence to support this POV.

Nevertheless, I don't blame Zorn for anything because I feel that Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato took too much of a risk by elevating Zorn to a position too far above the level of Zorn's previous experience. Zorn as the OC and QB coach working for a more qualified HC may have worked out fine for everyone.

I believe that the biggest problem we have in building a contender is the tendency of management to overpay, both in dollars and draft picks, for players who are too old to build with at the time we get them. Management has shown themselves to be infatuated with big names and to be prone to panic and overpay for older veterans when there is an injury to a starter. This, in turn, has lead to the loss of good young starters and the lack of quality young depth acquired via the draft.

For example, looking back, perhaps we should have paid the big bucks for Derrick Dockery. This would not be a case of 20-20 hindsight if it had been the policy and practice of the organization to retain young stars who are free agents versus signing older big names in free agency.

We have two very good examples of both sides of this policy that occurred this season. We have Jason Taylor for whom we paid 2nd and 6th round draft picks knowing that we would get a maximum of 2 years service out of him. Bad idea unless he's going to lead you to the Super Bowl. On the other hand, we have DeAngelo Hall, a young talented player we got for next to nothing because he was released by a senile old man in Oakland. Now, that's a great pickup.

I think that the examples of Taylor and Hall illustrate that there is either the lack of a philosophical foundation to the management's dealings or the lack of self-discipline on the part of management to stick to the plan.

I don't think that Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato necessarily need to step out of the player acqusition picture, but I do think that they need to decide on a philosophy of doing business and stick with it. I also think that they need to partner with a strong-minded, experienced coach whose opinions they respect in order to get it done.

[PennSkinsFan]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

I think Zorn is in over his head as a HC and that he has lost the hearts and minds of many of the players. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence to support this POV.

Which all goes back tot he same exact problem that, regardless of what we are talking about, centers in on.

Who hired Zorn for this position. Who's decision was it. It took many int he NFL by surprise, why?

Let's face it, we have big, big problems, and there names are DANNY AND VINNY. They are simply not competent to run a professional football franchise and win at the same time.

Let me ask you this --- how much better are we now than we were 8 years ago when Snyder took over? What have we won? How have we competed?

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

I think Zorn is in over his head as a HC and that he has lost the hearts and minds of many of the players. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence to support this POV.

Nevertheless, I don't blame Zorn for anything because I feel that Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato took too much of a risk by elevating Zorn to a position too far above the level of Zorn's previous experience. Zorn as the OC and QB coach working for a more qualified HC may have worked out fine for everyone.

I believe that the biggest problem we have in building a contender is the tendency of management to overpay, both in dollars and draft picks, for players who are too old to build with at the time we get them. Management has shown themselves to be infatuated with big names and to be prone to panic and overpay for older veterans when there is an injury to a starter. This, in turn, has lead to the loss of good young starters and the lack of quality young depth acquired via the draft.

For example, looking back, perhaps we should have paid the big bucks for Derrick Dockery. This would not be a case of 20-20 hindsight if it had been the policy and practice of the organization to retain young stars who are free agents versus signing older big names in free agency.

We have two very good examples of both sides of this policy that occurred this season. We have Jason Taylor for whom we paid 2nd and 6th round draft picks knowing that we would get a maximum of 2 years service out of him. Bad idea unless he's going to lead you to the Super Bowl. On the other hand, we have DeAngelo Hall, a young talented player we got for next to nothing because he was released by a senile old man in Oakland. Now, that's a great pickup.

I think that the examples of Taylor and Hall illustrate that there is either the lack of a philosophical foundation to the management's dealings or the lack of self-discipline on the part of management to stick to the plan.

I don't think that Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato necessarily need to step out of the player acqusition picture, but I do think that they need to decide on a philosophy of doing business and stick with it. I also think that they need to partner with a strong-minded, experienced coach whose opinions they respect in order to get it done.

good well thought out points there KI skins fan. welcome aboard, you should have been here about 8 weeks ago when we were partying with the music up. now its the morning after, the house is thrashed and theres only a few stragglers sleeping on the couch.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by gabe1984

Get rid of all the Miami Hurricanes.

Trade for a roster of ALL Miami Hurricanes. Of course, since U players are the best in the league at many positions, the salary cap would prevent this unless we get all of them on board to play for cheap as some kind of college reunion tour.

Another possible drawback, who will play QB? Ken Dorsey? Gino Torretta? Hey........Vinny Testeverde!

[Rock Your Face]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

I don't think that Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato necessarily need to step out of the player acqusition picture, but I do think that they need to decide on a philosophy of doing business and stick with it. I also think that they need to partner with a strong-minded, experienced coach whose opinions they respect in order to get it done.

I agree w/ everything you say here except this last part. The sample size with Danny and Vinny is large enough to know that they will not change their ways. The only time there seemed to be shift in philosophy was under Gibbs, and that was b/c Snyder idolized Gibbs.

This year's rookie class, w/ the exception of Horton, has been beyond terrible; and let's be honest, 7th round picks are a complete crap shoot (Gimbran Hamden anyone?). Then Vinny goes and compounds the mistake by (1) keeping all them on the roster and (2) not placing Kelly on IR, which would have allowed the Skins to either keep another receiver or not cut Leigh Torrence when they signed Hall. If this were the first of Vinny's screw-ups we could forgive it as just one crappy draft, but the truth is it's just more of an on-going pattern.

Look, it's Snyder's team, if to him owning a winning team is not worth it unless he can win his way (calling the shots football wise), that's his decision and he certainly has a right to make it. It's just a shame that we the fans have to be subjected to it.

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by Rock Your Face

I agree w/ everything you say here except this last part. The sample size with Danny and Vinny is large enough to know that they will not change their ways. The only time there seemed to be shift in philosophy was under Gibbs, and that was b/c Snyder idolized Gibbs.

This year's rookie class, w/ the exception of Horton, has been beyond terrible; and let's be honest, 7th round picks are a complete crap shoot (Gimbran Hamden anyone?). Then Vinny goes and compounds the mistake by (1) keeping all them on the roster and (2) not placing Kelly on IR, which would have allowed the Skins to either keep another receiver or not cut Leigh Torrence when they signed Hall. If this were the first of Vinny's screw-ups we could forgive it as just one crappy draft, but the truth is it's just more of an on-going pattern.

Look, it's Snyder's team, if to him owning a winning team is not worth it unless he can win his way (calling the shots football wise), that's his decision and he certainly has a right to make it. It's just a shame that we the fans have to be subjected to it.

It's hard for me to argue that Snyder and Cerrato can change their ways. Nevertheless, there is a part of me that desperately hopes that they can because I don't think that either one of them is going anywhere.

I think that you're judging this draft class too soon, though. Sometimes it takes two or three seasons for a player to reach his potential. Even the great Art Monk didn't do much until his fourth season.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by Buster

Trade for a roster of ALL Miami Hurricanes. Of course, since U players are the best in the league at many positions, the salary cap would prevent this unless we get all of them on board to play for cheap as some kind of college reunion tour.

Another possible drawback, who will play QB? Ken Dorsey? Gino Torretta? Hey........Vinny Testeverde!

better than the washington gators from years back!!

go skins!!

[Rock Your Face]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

I think that you're judging this draft class too soon, though. Sometimes it takes two or three seasons for a player to reach his potential. Even the great Art Monk didn't do much until his fourth season.

That is a fair point, but early round picks (1-3) are expected to be eventual starters in the NFL and certainly are expected to contribute more as rookies then this group has. I hope that in 3 or 4 years I am wrong about Thomas, Kelly, and Davis, but I doubt I will be.

[JWsleep]

There's lots of work to do here, people.

My feeling is that JC is not one of the big worries. The o-line, the D-line, the LBs are all more pressing needs. That's a HUGE problem. JC may not be one of those guys who wins games single handedly, but he can do the job with a good cast of supporting characters, IMO.

Coaches: Zorn gets one more year. He may not have to make the playoffs, but he's got to show real improvement. He needs an experienced WC coordinator to take some of the pressure off, as well. He needs a new o-line coach too, much as I love Buges. There's a clash of philosophies there, I think. (Not that Buges hasn't done all that's been asked of him. He has. It's just that someone really versed in the WC makes more sense.) Blache: give him another year, but that's it, and please give him some linemen! Danny Smith: not sure what he's done to save his job. Get someone new.

Vinny: we're stuck with him for the foreseeable future, I bet. That's the real bummer. Hope he's learned something from the collapse this year. We can only fantasize about a real GM.

Bottom line: there are a few pieces here, but we've got tons of work to do. BUt to all those calling for a total tear-down: there's a salary cap. Plus, other teams want the good players too. It's not Madden. We're stuck with lots of these guys for the next few years. My guess is, in the best case, it's 2-3 years to get better. And that's if everything we do works out and Vinny grows a brain. If not, well, it's going to remain painful.

[mredskins]

Originally Posted by JWsleep

There's lots of work to do here, people.

My feeling is that JC is not one of the big worries. The o-line, the D-line, the LBs are all more pressing needs. That's a HUGE problem. JC may not be one of those guys who wins games single handedly, but he can do the job with a good cast of supporting characters, IMO.

Coaches: Zorn gets one more year. He may not have to make the playoffs, but he's got to show real improvement. He needs an experienced WC coordinator to take some of the pressure off, as well. He needs a new o-line coach too, much as I love Buges. There's a clash of philosophies there, I think. (Not that Buges hasn't done all that's been asked of him. He has. It's just that someone really versed in the WC makes more sense.) Blache: give him another year, but that's it, and please give him some linemen! Danny Smith: not sure what he's done to save his job. Get someone new.

Vinny: we're stuck with him for the foreseeable future, I bet. That's the real bummer. Hope he's learned something from the collapse this year. We can only fantasize about a real GM.

Bottom line: there are a few pieces here, but we've got tons of work to do. BUt to all those calling for a total tear-down: there's a salary cap. Plus, other teams want the good players too. It's not Madden. We're stuck with lots of these guys for the next few years. My guess is, in the best case, it's 2-3 years to get better. And that's if everything we do works out and Vinny grows a brain. If not, well, it's going to remain painful.

It has been "it's 2-3 years to get better" mentality for the last freaking twenty years! I am tired of it.

[holcknowsbest]

Originally Posted by Smooter

Everyone just needs to get a grip and realize that we weren't as good as our record showed the beginning of the season. Like everyone else I got my hopes up thinking we were much better than we were. Things have been on the decline the last few weeks, but a coaching change is not the answer right now. Do we seriously want to throw another system into the mix for our team to learn? Of course not. Everyone take a deep breath.

what is gay is the fact that you dont hire a guy like gregg williams before you put us all through this. what else did he have to do to prove he was a worthy coach. i am sorry but what is gay is the fact that you cant get promoted even though you have been the only bright spot from a coaching stand point since marty was here. you were the same donkey saying steve spurrier was the answer too, just give him some time....get real man, football coaches are hard to come by, there are those who can lead and those who cant.......seems to me that a 6-10 played harder from gibbs and williams in 04 than a 7-6 team did for jim zorn and blache in 08........if you cant see this then your blind

[mredskins]

Originally Posted by Buster

Trade for a roster of ALL Miami Hurricanes. Of course, since U players are the best in the league at many positions, the salary cap would prevent this unless we get all of them on board to play for cheap as some kind of college reunion tour.

Another possible drawback, who will play QB? Ken Dorsey? Gino Torretta? Hey........Vinny Testeverde!

Well you could get Big Ben he went to the U of Ohio. Close enough?