For everyone that didn't give up!

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I think there's some legit discussion going on here. Perhaps it didn't start off on the right foot, but for the most part it's swung away from the extreme that it started off on.

I'll agree there's legit discussion now, so thanks to the Warpath community, we turned this thread into something not retarded at all. There's definitely good discussion now, it's just nice to see it acknowledged that the thread did not start out so well. I'm just interested in seeing the divisive stuff come to an end, to the extent possible.

Posters need to remember one of the forum guidelines is to agree to disagree. If someone has a negative viewpoint, don't let it bring you down to the point where you bicker with them, just say well I think you're wrong, explain why you think so, and move on. And if someone is going on blind faith and being a total homer, don't let their beliefs annoy you to the point where you start calling them Kool Aid drinkers and bickering. Just say well I think you're wrong, explain why you think so, and move on. We can debate thoughtfully without bickering.

[#56fanatic]

I will call myself out here. I definately was one of the doubters. I didn't think in anyway possible we would be able to win those games down the stretch to give us a shot. Along with some help from other teams losing and we taking care of our business, we are actually playing a meaningful game this weekend against Dallas. I love it. I love the fact that it basically comes down to beating the cowboys for us to be in the playoffs. (unless Minn and NO lose)

Good job Joe and da Skins to prove me wrong.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'll agree there's legit discussion now, so thanks to the Warpath community, we turned this thread into something not retarded at all. There's definitely good discussion now, it's just nice to see it acknowledged that the thread did not start out so well. I'm just interested in seeing the divisive stuff come to an end, to the extent possible.

Posters need to remember one of the forum guidelines is to agree to disagree. If someone has a negative viewpoint, don't let it bring you down to the point where you bicker with them, just say well I think you're wrong, explain why you think so, and move on. And if someone is going on blind faith and being a total homer, don't let their beliefs annoy you to the point where you start calling them Kool Aid drinkers and bickering. Just say well I think you're wrong, explain why you think so, and move on. We can debate thoughtfully without bickering.

But isn't it, well, difficult to debate thoughtfully around such a passionate thing like football? Particularly when both people are equally as passionate about the same team?

Let's say one person is more skilled at actually debating than someone else, does that somehow make their viewpoint less of an argument or thought worthy? Perhaps they aren't as good at articulating thoughts, facts, and arguments. And to some extent, I think that's where a huge part of the divide, so to speak, exists. To your point though, I think we should be able to debate without bickering, but I doubt it's possible when emotions run high as they often do around Redskins football.

[MTK]

I have no problem with doubters. Doubt is a perfectly rational point of view to have especially with the way things went this season.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Gave up on the team? Last I checked, nobody stopped being a fan just because they thought the team wouldn't do well.

Would have been nice to see the mods take leadership to strike down this type of instigation. A bit disappointing and alienating, as ctt mentioned.

Just to piggyback on that, I'm willing to go so far as to say that everyone who posts on here on a regular basis is a fan. With the exception of the occasional douchebag who comes here trolling or selling something, everyone is here because they love the Redskins.

If you weren't a fan you wouldn't hop on the internet almost every day and write post after post about the 'Skins and argue the finer points of the team. If you weren't a fan, why would you spend hours and hours of your life and rack up 1000, 2000, 5000, 10,000+ posts about the Redskins? Of COURSE you're a fan, based on the sheer amount of your own personal time you devote to discussing and thinking about this team.

What pisses me off more than anything is the people making broad, sweeping declarations that "so-and-so" isn't a fan, after one negative comment said in frustration. That's as reactionary and asinine as the "negative nelly" who gets on here after a loss and demands that Gibbs be fired. There's zero difference.

Look, I have my share of disagreements on here with people, and some on a regular basis. Not to call anyone out, but for one reason or another I find myself on opposite sides of arguments with certain people about 99% of the time. But I'd never call them lesser fans or NOT fans at all. The simple fact that they are on here dicussing this at all means they are a fan.

A fan cares about their team, through thick and thin. Anyone who's even consistently watching the Redskins at this point in the season, after what the team has been through, is a fan in my book. Yes, it's annoying when after a tough loss someone jumps on here, creates a new account, demands someone's head, and leaves just as quickly. Hell, anyone who's watched this team be abysmal over the last 15 years is probably fan simply for sticking around.

I'd say the simple fact that someone cares enough about the team to GET angry about it proves "fan" status. If they weren't a fan, they'd probably just say "oh well, tough break" and forget about it.

There's personality clashes all the time, good arguments, bad arguments, and plainly illogical rambling, but questioning someone's "fan status" is just as "ridicules" as it comes.

We might go 0-16 in 2008, and you're damn right I'm going to complain about it the entire time. And I'll be right back in 2009 to watch every game.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

But isn't it, well, difficult to debate thoughtfully around such a passionate thing like football? Particularly when both people are equally as passionate about the same team?

Let's say one person is more skilled at actually debating than someone else, does that somehow make their viewpoint less of an argument or thought worthy? Perhaps they aren't as good at articulating thoughts, facts, and arguments. And to some extent, I think that's where a huge part of the divide, so to speak, exists. To your point though, I think we should be able to debate without bickering, but I doubt it's possible when emotions run high as they often do around Redskins football.

I see your point, but I'm not sure what to conclude from it.

Someone's argument may be really insightful and spot on, but if it's encased in nonsense and fallacy, I'm going to assume that it's nonsensical and fallacious until they can articulate it better.

If someone can't debate well, exhibits poor thinking ability, reasoning ability, or logical thought process and is unable to articulate their point, what should I conclude?

All we have to go on here is how someone articulates their point. If someone rambles on incoherently with poor grammar, poor spelling, fills their "argument" with fallacies and nonsense, what should I conclude?

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

To your point though, I think we should be able to debate without bickering, but I doubt it's possible when emotions run high as they often do around Redskins football.

Per the forum guidelines, it's the responsibility of the poster to calm their emotions before posting. The "think before you post" rule. And another one of the guidelines, to treat each other with the utmost respect. The bickering has got to go, no matter how hard it may be.

[MTK]

People are making some good points here.

I just wanted to reiterate that it's usually those that are on the extreme ends of the fan spectrum that keep shit like this going. And some of those people we have gotten rid of lately if you haven't noticed.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by mheisig

I see your point, but I'm not sure what to conclude from it.

The point may very well be perfectly valid and spot on, but if it's encased in nonsense and fallacy, I'm going to assume that it's nonsensical and fallacious until they can articulate it better.

If someone can't debate well, exhibits poor thinking ability, reasoning ability, or logical thought process and is unable to articulate their point, what should I conclude?

All we have to go on here is how someone articulates their point. If someone rambles on incoherently with poor grammar, poor spelling, fills their "argument" with fallacies and nonsense, what should I conclude?

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

Exactly.

If you post nonsense, your opinion gets dismissed. Doesn't matter whether you're capable of posting well-articulated points or not. But to me, the issue comes down to how we treat each other. The issue to me is that one side questions the other's fan hood for thinking anything negative, and the other side questions the other's intelligence for having blind faith. On both sides, that has to stop.

The high road here is to post rational justification behind everything you post. Then you're not open to that ridiculous criticism from the "other side". And on the flipside, we as members, and the mods as mods, can take steps to come down on people who start up a bickering match.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

People are making some good points here.

I just wanted to reiterate that it's usually those that are on the extreme ends of the fan spectrum that keep shit like this going. And some of those people we have gotten rid of lately if you haven't noticed.

Yes, I did notice, and LOVED that move. I'm probably not giving you guys your due for taking action. You're the best forum staff I've come across. Just wanted to say that amidst my calling for improvement on the bickering.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Exactly.

If you post nonsense, your opinion gets dismissed. Doesn't matter whether you're capable of posting well-articulated points or not. But to me, the issue comes down to how we treat each other. The issue to me is that one side questions the other's fan hood for thinking anything negative, and the other side questions the other's intelligence for having blind faith. On both sides, that has to stop.

The high road here is to post rational justification behind everything you post. Then you're not open to that ridiculous criticism from the "other side". And on the flipside, we as members, and the mods as mods, can take steps to come down on people who start up a bickering match.

Agreed.

Unfortunately the people currently involved in this discussion are probably not the ones that need to hear this...

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Per the forum guidelines, it's the responsibility of the poster to calm their emotions before posting. The "think before you post" rule. And another one of the guidelines, to treat each other with the utmost respect. The bickering has got to go, no matter how hard it may be.

Truthfully, how many people actually read or have read the forum guidelines? I haven't. And that's not out of disrespect to the site or the Mods. I love this place. I just try to keep myself in check, be nice for the most part, and I think I'll stay out of trouble. Yes, respect should be a written forum guideline that should be followed, but isn't that one of life's basic tenets? If someone needs to read the forum guidelines to exercise their better judgement in terms of respect for their fellow man and fellow fan, for that matter, then woe unto them.

I don't want to send the wrong message here. I do think the rules are very neccassary. I also think they are primarily for those who are either intent on breaking them to begin with or those who are well intentioned but perhaps a little ignorant about how forums are actually run.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Truthfully, how many people actually read or have read the forum guidelines? I haven't. And that's not out of disrespect to the site or the Mods. I love this place. I just try to keep myself in check, be nice for the most part, and I think I'll stay out of trouble. Yes, respect should be a written forum guideline that should be followed, but isn't that one of life's basic tenets? If someone needs to read the forum guidelines to exercise their better judgement in terms of respect for their fellow man and fellow fan, for that matter, then woe unto them.

I don't want to send the wrong message here. I do think the rules are very neccassary. I also think they are primarily for those who are either intent on breaking them to begin with or those who are well intentioned but perhaps a little ignorant about how forums are actually run.

I've read the rules, and they're certainly necessary to have.

For the most part, the mature, sane individuals on here who have their head on straight would operate on the forum guidelines whether they are there or not, or whether they've read them or not.

The douchebags will be douchebags, no matter how many times they read the rules.

The rules give you a nice way to boot someone off the forum and not have it be arbitrary.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Truthfully, how many people actually read or have read the forum guidelines? I haven't. And that's not out of disrespect to the site or the Mods. I love this place. I just try to keep myself in check, be nice for the most part, and I think I'll stay out of trouble. Yes, respect should be a written forum guideline that should be followed, but isn't that one of life's basic tenets? If someone needs to read the forum guidelines to exercise their better judgement in terms of respect for their fellow man and fellow fan, for that matter, then woe unto them.

I don't want to send the wrong message here. I do think the rules are very neccassary. I also think they are primarily for those who are either intent on breaking them to begin with or those who are well intentioned but perhaps a little ignorant about how forums are actually run.

I'm with you. You're definitely not one of the trouble makers, in fact you're one of the model members around here and add a ton to the site. My beef is really with the guy who started this thread. The forum guidelines are based on common sense and common courtesy when it comes down to it, like you alluded to. But, like Mheisig just said, some people are just going to ignore them no matter what. My message is mainly directed at them (though I don't think they're reading at this point). But also, I'd be all in favor of mods and members coming down on this kind of behavior (like they did with one guy at the extreme end of the spectrum recently). Anyway, I've probably made my points. This is too much angst before a huge Cowboys game. I still heart you guys.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by mheisig

I've read the rules, and they're certainly necessary to have.

For the most part, the mature, sane individuals on here who have their head on straight would operate on the forum guidelines whether they are there or not, or whether they've read them or not.

The douchebags will be douchebags, no matter how many times they read the rules.

The rules give you a nice way to boot someone off the forum and not have it be arbitrary.

agreed. but still, there's something about have a douchebag drop by every now and then that's keeps it all interesting