Dan Snyder: WP: Formula for Success Article

[skinsfaninok]

Originally Posted by saden1

I just read the article...not sure how my post constitutes a drive by. Clearly you don't see or care to see the fact that the Skins have been mismanaged for the past 14 years. I get it, Snyder doesn't offend your sensibility but some of us find him abominable and have the right to articulate our disdain for the man.

I think he's probably a nice guy that wants to win, but he sucks ass as an owner, he started out by firing norv who had a winning record while DS was the owner and Damn near took us to a NFC champ game, then he fires marty after an 8-8 season because Marty wanted to be Gm and coach.. he brought in vinny who fucked the team over for years, best move he ever made was Gibbs and Joe is so great he made Dan look good for a few yrs anyway. Finally after hiring MS I believed deep down Dan was going to build a winner in dc again, well that is out of the window... So yes I agree w most of what u r saying, and honestly idk how I feel about next yr because deep down I think we r cursed under Snyder. People clown on Dallas around here but guess what, they are at least always competitive, we just went 5-11, and 3-13 in 2 of our last 3 Years.....

[saden1]

Originally Posted by skinsfaninok

I think he's probably a nice guy that wants to win, but he sucks ass as an owner, he started out by firing norv who had a winning record while DS was the owner and Damn near took us to a NFC champ game, then he fires marty after an 8-8 season because Marty wanted to be Gm and coach.. he brought in vinny who fucked the team over for years, best move he ever made was Gibbs and Joe is so great he made Dan look good for a few yrs anyway. Finally after hiring MS I believed deep down Dan was going to build a winner in dc again, well that is out of the window... So yes I agree w most of what u r saying, and honestly idk how I feel about next yr because deep down I think we r cursed under Snyder. People clown on Dallas around here but guess what, they are at least always competitive, we just went 5-11, and 3-13 in 2 of our last 3 Years.....

I honestly dont give a fck if he is nice or not. I care about results and leadership. For Snyder to say it's the GMs job to prevent the owner from hiring a unqualified HC is mind boggling. With a single statement he shifts resposibilty from him and at the same time redefines the function of a GM to that of a henchman and a babysitter of the owner.

Leadership is hiring someone to be the GM and trusting that person to hire thier own people and taking full responsibility for the teams failure and success and not having to say "a GMs job is to prevent the owner from hiring an unqualified HC." If you look around the league this is the structure emplyed by most franchises.

[SolidSnake84]

Originally Posted by saden1

I honestly dont give a fck if he is nice or not. I care about results and leadership. For Snyder to say it's the GMs job to prevent the owner from hiring a unqualified HC is mind boggling. With a single statement he shifts resposibilty from him and at the same time redefines the function of a GM to that of a henchman and a babysitter of the owner.

Leadership is hiring someone to be the GM and trusting that person to hire thier own people and taking full responsibility for the teams failure and success and not having to say "a GMs job is to prevent the owner from hiring an unqualified HC." If you look around the league this is the structure emplyed by most franchises.

I agree with all of your points above.

But whose to say that Snyder wouldn't play his "owner" card and demand things his way even with a "GM" in place? I think most of the problem is that people in DC might be afraid to tell Dan Snyder the truth. Listening to interviews with Vinny since his firing, almost everybody in the building knew that Zorn wasn't the answer at coach, but nobody had the cojones to tell Dan Snyder. Vinny sort of admits that as he says that he had his reservations, etc.. etc...

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by saden1

I honestly dont give a fck if he is nice or not. I care about results and leadership. For Snyder to say it's the GMs job to prevent the owner from hiring a unqualified HC is mind boggling. With a single statement he shifts resposibilty from him and at the same time redefines the function of a GM to that of a henchman and a babysitter of the owner.

Leadership is hiring someone to be the GM and trusting that person to hire thier own people and taking full responsibility for the teams failure and success and not having to say "a GMs job is to prevent the owner from hiring an unqualified HC." If you look around the league this is the structure emplyed by most franchises.

The bolded part is true as long as we keep in mind that the GM doesn't really hire anyone - Snyder hires everyone, because it is his checkbook.

And if you keep that in mind, you will see that Snyder actually is agreeing with you with the statement of his which you find so offensive.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by Lotus

The bolded part is true as long as we keep in mind that the GM doesn't really hire anyone - Snyder hires everyone, because it is his checkbook.

And if you keep that in mind, you will see that Snyder actually is agreeing with you with the statement of his which you find so offensive.

Snyder's past actions speak louder than his words now.

The same mantra "Snyder's stepped back" and "Finally the scouts will be listened to" were said back in the Gibbs 2.0 era. Now we know Snyder was involved, just not as much as before. We heard the mantra again when Shanny was hired. I doubt the rumor Shanny or whoever put out about Snyder getting involved with the team was entirely untrue.

With the Tusker/Gruden/Tampa connections, these latest hires seem to have Allen's fingerprints all over them, but who knows. Snyder doesn't deserve the benefit of a doubt anymore, IMO. When we have a coaching tenure that ends without rumors afterwards that Snyder didn't meddle, then yeah I'll believe Snyder's changed.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Snyder's past actions speak louder than his words now.

The same mantra "Snyder's stepped back" and "Finally the scouts will be listened to" were said back in the Gibbs 2.0 era. Now we know Snyder was involved, just not as much as before. We heard the mantra again when Shanny was hired. I doubt the rumor Shanny or whoever put out about Snyder getting involved with the team was entirely untrue.

With the Tusker/Gruden/Tampa connections, these latest hires seem to have Allen's fingerprints all over them, but who knows. Snyder doesn't deserve the benefit of a doubt anymore, IMO. When we have a coaching tenure that ends without rumors afterwards that Snyder didn't meddle, then yeah I'll believe Snyder's changed.

That will never happen as long as arguments like yours are made. In your post you used past actions to project ideas about current behavior. You'll still be able to do that in 200 years.

If you think Snyder is meddling NOW (not in the past), show your evidence. If you have no evidence, then speculation is pointless.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by Lotus

That will never happen as long as arguments like yours are made. In your post you used past actions to project ideas about current behavior. You'll still be able to do that in 200 years.

If you think Snyder is meddling NOW (not in the past), show your evidence. If you have no evidence, then speculation is pointless.

How about you show evidence that Snyder's changed? I gave you one bit. I don't think it and other signs Snyder's changed outweigh the meddling Snyder's done for over a decade. Turner, Schottenheimer, Gibbs, Zorn, Shanahan.... How many coaching regimes do we have to go through before the burden of proof is on those who argue "Snyder's changed" this time?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

How about you show evidence that Snyder's changed? I gave you one bit. I don't think it and other signs Snyder's changed outweigh the meddling Snyder's done for over a decade. Turner, Schottenheimer, Gibbs, Zorn, Shanahan.... How many coaching regimes do we have to go through before the burden of proof is on those who argue "Snyder's changed" this time?

I think you see a very specific pattern in all of Snyder's time, barring Turner/Schottenheimer where he was the meddler from hell. Since Gibbs, Snyder has significantly changed, but his model is, I find one guy I trust, and then "suggest" what I want to do. Depending on the backbone of the guy he trusts depends on the level of meddling.

With Gibbs, most accounts are that while he involved himself with the players personally, football decisions were entrusted to Gibbs but Gibbs believed in a strong owner so Snyder could "meddle" some.

Cerrato, the leach was always there, and when Gibbs left Cerrato became the trusted guy. Cerrato was and I think is a spineless no nothing who pushed his agenda ahead of the best for football. And Cerrato's bad decisions gave Snyder impetus to push and be overly involved.

Shanallen, I think we finally start to see some level of backing away, where mainly Shanahan but also Allen could push ideas without direct interference. Maybe once in a while on a handful of decisions over 4 years Snyder personally intervened, but percentage wise, and over the vast numbers of decisions, where to have training camp, when Griffin played this season, who the assistant coaches were, etc etc, we didn't see Snyders hand like we did under Cerrato, and certainly not like with Turner/Schottenheimer.

Now we have Allen. Snyder absolutely trusts Allen. I hope it's trust well placed, but clearly, no move so far can be pointed to as a Snyder override of Allen's grand plan.

And SS84, way to be overly dramatic about Snyder "ruining the Skins beyond repair". I think they sell a Skins Repair kit in WalMart (aisle 5).

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

How about you show evidence that Snyder's changed? I gave you one bit. I don't think it and other signs Snyder's changed outweigh the meddling Snyder's done for over a decade. Turner, Schottenheimer, Gibbs, Zorn, Shanahan.... How many coaching regimes do we have to go through before the burden of proof is on those who argue "Snyder's changed" this time?

I didn't argue that Snyder has changed. I said that your argument is essentially circular, as it assumes what it is trying to prove, and hence is fallacious.

Snyder meddled under Shanahan? Prove it. I have seen zero evidence for this which is not just Shanahan crapping on everyone on the way out the door. Offer real evidence that is indisputably not just Shanahan spin.

You can talk about the past all you want. But until you offer evidence from the present, which you have not done despite a call for it, you are engaging in pointless rumor-mongering.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Snyder's past actions speak louder than his words now.

The same mantra "Snyder's stepped back" and "Finally the scouts will be listened to" were said back in the Gibbs 2.0 era. Now we know Snyder was involved, just not as much as before. We heard the mantra again when Shanny was hired. I doubt the rumor Shanny or whoever put out about Snyder getting involved with the team was entirely untrue.

With the Tusker/Gruden/Tampa connections, these latest hires seem to have Allen's fingerprints all over them, but who knows. Snyder doesn't deserve the benefit of a doubt anymore, IMO. When we have a coaching tenure that ends without rumors afterwards that Snyder didn't meddle, then yeah I'll believe Snyder's changed.

The problem with this argument, along with Lotus' note, is that an easy out for a failed coach in DC is to tell a few receptive media friends that Snyder meddled on decisions x, y, and z. An owner, every owner, will have some decisions that they just think are important enough to weigh in on. That doesn't mean that the coach's tenure was marred by intrusive ownership.

I think everyone knows that Snyder was way too involved early on. No sane person disputes that. But he has made significant moves, with mixed results, that reflect a man moving away from the daily decisions. And as you pointed out, this staff absolutely looks like an Allen staff.

The final note, is just because Snyder is not meddling, doesn't by definition mean that those in charge are the right people. We hope they are, but ultimately only time will tell.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by saden1

Leadership is hiring someone to be the GM and trusting that person to hire thier own people and taking full responsibility for the teams failure and success and not having to say "a GMs job is to prevent the owner from hiring an unqualified HC." If you look around the league this is the structure emplyed by most franchises.

Leadership can be defined in a lot of ways but I'm not sure that any of them include complete abdication like this. I agree he hasn't shown to be very good but he just got finished with allowing someone to act in this manner and it didn't work. Seems to me his only obvious failing at this point is that he sucks at hiring the right people.