Let's talk about the front office situation

RobH4413 · 12-31-2013, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

You mean like he has for the last four years when Shanahan had TOTAL control over football operations?

No, I mean what I wrote earlier in the thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobH4413

If you heard JLC this morning on the junkies- he delivered a pretty striking sermon regarding the Redskins current FO situation. He didn't have as much pessimism about finding a good coach, but implied that the Dan Snyder can only skin a cat two ways.

Having the head coach (a la Shotty, Gibbs, and Shanny) have complete control, even when they aren't qualified to do so. Gibbs was not ever known to build a roster. Shanahan was fired from Denver for personnel gaffes as well.

Or having the front office take control, with Snyder directly involved a la Jerry Jones.

The current look right now is the latter of the two, and JLC was extremely pessimistic about the chances of success for the Redskins, as am I. Bruce Allen's strengths have never been personnel (he's earned his experience through contracts/negotiations with agents), and now we're going to have to live through another round of Danny boy fiddling with the roster

I can't see why it's so damn hard to hire a true GM and step back and let the process play. He wants to be involved, and beyond that I think he LOOOOVESSS to be involved. It's his team and he can do whatever he wants.

I really hope this isn't the case, because we're in for another long stretch folks if it is.

RobH4413 · 12-31-2013, 12:42 PM

Let me be clear. I am advocating for a true GM because I think these two previously (repeatedly) used templates for running the organization suck.

Give a coach 100% control over football operation. (Shottenheimer, Gibbs, Shanahan)
Handcuff F/O and coach with Quasi-GM bureaucratic mess (Spurrier, Zorn)

My proposed solution is for a true GM (not Snyder's right hand man), with respectable football organizational and social skills to provide a coaching staff with the tools for success.

Perhaps Allen and co can succeed with this template, but I'm worried about the influence Snyder has on the team, due to the track record. I'm hoping more changes come, and Snyder openly and officially steps back and let's the football guys do what they know how to do.

Schneed10 · 12-31-2013, 12:43 PM

I like Allen in this role because I don't think he would be the guy who will make the personnel decision. I think he is a good leader who understands how to delegate responsibility and will lean on the advice of his scouting group.

Surely he will also be smart enough to take advice from the coach on scheme fit.

My biggest beef all along has been no separation between church and state. Meaning, I hate how Shanahan had both final say on personnel and coaching decisions. It's impossible to remain objective and it's just too much for one person to worry about.

You want someone who knows how to coach and can identify scheme fit. You want someone who really knows how to scout and can identify talent. And you want someone capable of balancing it all and making sensible decisions, without being too deep into the weeds - that's Allen.

Cerrato never used the scouting department. And if Shanahan ignored them, that was a mistake too. Supposedly they are well-regarded. They'll have more input into personnel decisions than Allen will, he'll just be the guy enabling them to do it, and pulling the trigger.

Redskins_P · 12-31-2013, 01:07 PM

[QUOTE=Schneed10;1052458Cerrato never used the scouting department. And if Shanahan ignored them, that was a mistake too. Supposedly they are well-regarded. They'll have more input into personnel decisions than Allen will, he'll just be the guy enabling them to do it, and pulling the trigger.[/QUOTE]

I really hope that is what Allen meant when he said he wanted to give Scott Campbell & Morocco Brown a chance to succeed. The more I think about it the more I get the feeling that Allen will use his resources and let them do the work their supposed to do and most importantly TRUST their work.

saden1 · 12-31-2013, 01:12 PM

Mr. Allen, I know a boss when I see one and you sir are no boss. For 4 years you were collecting a paycheck as the GM of this team when in reality Shannahan was the GM and you were the GM in name only. Now you want us to believe you are the boss? Is that your jet flying around picking up the Griffins? Is that your limo chauffeuring the wife of a particular player? You and your BOSS disgust me. May the lord save us from your "leadership."

MTK · 12-31-2013, 01:14 PM

Shanahan would be proud that his message of BS got through... to some at least.

TheMalcolmConnection · 12-31-2013, 01:18 PM

While maybe not having a true GM was a mistake, I get so tired of hearing how poor of an owner Snyder is. We rehash and rehash facts from almost ten years ago. Sure, I'd love a more traditional model since we like to do things the ass-backwards way, but saying Allen is just a yes-man after Snyder backing off for years is quite a stretch when there's nothing to prove otherwise.

FRPLG · 12-31-2013, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Shanahan would be proud that his message of BS got through... to some at least.

No kidding. What an incredible level if ignorance that statement took.

Evilgrin · 12-31-2013, 01:27 PM

A good GM delegates everything and manages those people, just like a good HC.

BaltimoreSkins · 12-31-2013, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobH4413

Let me be clear. I am advocating for a true GM because I think these two previously (repeatedly) used templates for running the organization suck.

Give a coach 100% control over football operation. (Shottenheimer, Gibbs, Shanahan)
Handcuff F/O and coach with Quasi-GM bureaucratic mess (Spurrier, Zorn)

My proposed solution is for a true GM (not Snyder's right hand man), with respectable football organizational and social skills to provide a coaching staff with the tools for success.

Perhaps Allen and co can succeed with this template, but I'm worried about the influence Snyder has on the team, due to the track record. I'm hoping more changes come, and Snyder openly and officially steps back and let's the football guys do what they know how to do.

I agree we need a true GM, but I am not sold that Snyder had shown the ability to hire a competent one that he trusts to run the show

saden1 · 12-31-2013, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

While maybe not having a true GM was a mistake, I get so tired of hearing how poor of an owner Snyder is. We rehash and rehash facts from almost ten years ago. Sure, I'd love a more traditional model since we like to do things the ass-backwards way, but saying Allen is just a yes-man after Snyder backing off for years is quite a stretch when there's nothing to prove otherwise.

The proof is in the pudding. It's not rehashing if failure is constant.

I got a question for you lot, what exactly is the difference between Allen and Cerrato?

WillH · 12-31-2013, 01:45 PM

To all those that are being defensive about this new FO arrangement being criticized. Some people, including myself, are wary of this arrangement due to the track record of this organization. I don't think anyone is arguing that this CAN'T or WON'T work, but there should be some healthy skepticism about this arrangement. If Allen will be defaulting to the opinions of his personnel management why not explicitly say so? Why say so firmly that he is the decision maker? If the plan is to give Allen and Brown a chance to prove themselves before promotion, why not spell it out? There may be some very good reasons, but on the surface it doesn't look much different than the past arrangement with Vinnie, and that is what is alarming about this. I very much HOPE they are going to give the personnel guys more say, and trust their judgement, but I think many of us would feel a lot more confident if they had announced that someone with personnel experience would have final say in personnel decisions.

Redskins_P · 12-31-2013, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saden1

The proof is in the pudding. It's not rehashing if failure is constant.

I got a question for you lot, what exactly is the difference between Allen and Cerrato?

Allen has way more pedigree than Cerrato. Allen has been an NFL Executive for years and took a franchise to the Super Bowl (Tampa). He's had experience as a GM and while he may not have a perfect record in that aspect (Every GM has missed on draft picks & FA's), comparing him to Cerrato is ridiculous. Bruce has also stabilized our cap situation and the way we do our contracts which is something Cerrato had no clue of doing. C'mon are you seriously comparing the two? Cerrato was a complete joke and still is.

WillH · 12-31-2013, 01:52 PM

Also, what concerns me is that it sounded like they have decided already what direction this team was going in . . . When Allen said that the personnel guys would be given new instructions on what to look for in players . . . So that could mean one of two things to me:

1. They have a coach already, he is in the playoffs, and they can't talk about it, but they have had communications with them under the table and know the direction the team will be going in.

2. They have already decided what direction THEY want the team to go in, and they are looking for a coach willing to be on board with "the plan."

Based on past experience, I'd say 1 is much less likely than 2. Maybe there are other possibilities, any thoughts?

saden1 · 12-31-2013, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redskins_P

Allen has way more pedigree than Cerrato. Allen has been an NFL Executive for years and took a franchise to the Super Bowl (Tampa). He's had experience as a GM and while he may not have a perfect record in that aspect (Every GM has missed on draft picks & FA's), comparing him to Cerrato is ridiculous. Bruce has also stabilized our cap situation and the way we do our contracts which is something Cerrato had no clue of doing. C'mon are you seriously comparing the two? Cerrato was a complete joke and still is.

Bruce Allen didn't win a SB with the Bucs, it was Rich McKay not to mention the fact that after he took over he was promptly fired as the GM. I guess I am the only one that finds it troublesome that the "GM" of this team is out there now proclaiming "I'm in charge now." The management structure of the Redskins is a farce and for all you know Shannhan was the guy that got this team out of cap hell. Shanahan had the finally say in all personal matters so if anyone deserves credit it should be him.

Bruce Allen is Snyder's lackey, much like Vinny.

12-31-2013, 12:42 PM	#32
RobH4413 Wildcard Bitches Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bethesda, MD Age: 39 Posts: 2,638	Re: Let's talk about the front office situation Let me be clear. I am advocating for a true GM because I think these two previously (repeatedly) used templates for running the organization suck. Give a coach 100% control over football operation. (Shottenheimer, Gibbs, Shanahan) Handcuff F/O and coach with Quasi-GM bureaucratic mess (Spurrier, Zorn) My proposed solution is for a true GM (not Snyder's right hand man), with respectable football organizational and social skills to provide a coaching staff with the tools for success. Perhaps Allen and co can succeed with this template, but I'm worried about the influence Snyder has on the team, due to the track record. I'm hoping more changes come, and Snyder openly and officially steps back and let's the football guys do what they know how to do. __________________ This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps!

12-31-2013, 12:43 PM	#33
Schneed10 A Dude Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Newtown Square, PA Age: 45 Posts: 12,437	Re: Let's talk about the front office situation I like Allen in this role because I don't think he would be the guy who will make the personnel decision. I think he is a good leader who understands how to delegate responsibility and will lean on the advice of his scouting group. Surely he will also be smart enough to take advice from the coach on scheme fit. My biggest beef all along has been no separation between church and state. Meaning, I hate how Shanahan had both final say on personnel and coaching decisions. It's impossible to remain objective and it's just too much for one person to worry about. You want someone who knows how to coach and can identify scheme fit. You want someone who really knows how to scout and can identify talent. And you want someone capable of balancing it all and making sensible decisions, without being too deep into the weeds - that's Allen. Cerrato never used the scouting department. And if Shanahan ignored them, that was a mistake too. Supposedly they are well-regarded. They'll have more input into personnel decisions than Allen will, he'll just be the guy enabling them to do it, and pulling the trigger. __________________ God made certain people to play football. He was one of them.

12-31-2013, 01:07 PM	#34
Redskins_P Fight for old DC! Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Aldie, VA Age: 46 Posts: 4,101	Re: Let's talk about the front office situation [QUOTE=Schneed10;1052458Cerrato never used the scouting department. And if Shanahan ignored them, that was a mistake too. Supposedly they are well-regarded. They'll have more input into personnel decisions than Allen will, he'll just be the guy enabling them to do it, and pulling the trigger.[/QUOTE] I really hope that is what Allen meant when he said he wanted to give Scott Campbell & Morocco Brown a chance to succeed. The more I think about it the more I get the feeling that Allen will use his resources and let them do the work their supposed to do and most importantly TRUST their work.

12-31-2013, 01:12 PM	#35
saden1 MVP Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Seattle Age: 45 Posts: 10,069	Re: Let's talk about the front office situation Mr. Allen, I know a boss when I see one and you sir are no boss. For 4 years you were collecting a paycheck as the GM of this team when in reality Shannahan was the GM and you were the GM in name only. Now you want us to believe you are the boss? Is that your jet flying around picking up the Griffins? Is that your limo chauffeuring the wife of a particular player? You and your BOSS disgust me. May the lord save us from your "leadership." __________________ "The Redskins have always suffered from chronic organizational deformities under Snyder." -Jenkins

12-31-2013, 01:14 PM	#36
MTK \m/ Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 52 Posts: 99,719	Re: Let's talk about the front office situation Shanahan would be proud that his message of BS got through... to some at least. __________________ Support The Warpath! \| Warpath Shop

12-31-2013, 01:18 PM	#37
TheMalcolmConnection I like big (_\|_)s. Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Charlottesville, Virginia Age: 43 Posts: 19,237	Re: Let's talk about the front office situation While maybe not having a true GM was a mistake, I get so tired of hearing how poor of an owner Snyder is. We rehash and rehash facts from almost ten years ago. Sure, I'd love a more traditional model since we like to do things the ass-backwards way, but saying Allen is just a yes-man after Snyder backing off for years is quite a stretch when there's nothing to prove otherwise. __________________ Regret nothing. At one time it was exactly what you wanted.

12-31-2013, 01:27 PM	#39
Evilgrin The Starter Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 1,074	Re: Let's talk about the front office situation A good GM delegates everything and manages those people, just like a good HC. __________________ Bruce Allen “We’re winning off the field,” Redskins #2 In Revenue Per Year!

12-31-2013, 01:45 PM	#42
WillH The Starter Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,592	Re: Let's talk about the front office situation To all those that are being defensive about this new FO arrangement being criticized. Some people, including myself, are wary of this arrangement due to the track record of this organization. I don't think anyone is arguing that this CAN'T or WON'T work, but there should be some healthy skepticism about this arrangement. If Allen will be defaulting to the opinions of his personnel management why not explicitly say so? Why say so firmly that he is the decision maker? If the plan is to give Allen and Brown a chance to prove themselves before promotion, why not spell it out? There may be some very good reasons, but on the surface it doesn't look much different than the past arrangement with Vinnie, and that is what is alarming about this. I very much HOPE they are going to give the personnel guys more say, and trust their judgement, but I think many of us would feel a lot more confident if they had announced that someone with personnel experience would have final say in personnel decisions.

12-31-2013, 01:52 PM	#44
WillH The Starter Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,592	Re: Let's talk about the front office situation Also, what concerns me is that it sounded like they have decided already what direction this team was going in . . . When Allen said that the personnel guys would be given new instructions on what to look for in players . . . So that could mean one of two things to me: 1. They have a coach already, he is in the playoffs, and they can't talk about it, but they have had communications with them under the table and know the direction the team will be going in. 2. They have already decided what direction THEY want the team to go in, and they are looking for a coach willing to be on board with "the plan." Based on past experience, I'd say 1 is much less likely than 2. Maybe there are other possibilities, any thoughts?

Let's talk about the front office situation

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