Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

[GTripp0012]

1. Steve Young
2. Dan Marino
3. Otto Graham
4. Joe Montana
5. Roger Staubach
6. Bart Starr
7. Sammy Baugh
8. Brett Favre
9. Jim Kelly
10. Johnny Unitas

A list I put together using my criteria, but it's still off the top of my head, and rough around the edges. List excludes Peyton Manning for not being retired.

[Redskins_P]

Heres my list:

-Troy Aikman
-Joe Montana
-John Elway
-Brett Favre
-Steve Young
-Jim Kelly
-Dan Marino
-Warren Moon
-Phil Simms

[Redskins_P]

I forgot to add #10. I'm going with Bernie Kosar.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by budw38

Elway and Marino never had great defences

Umm what? Elway had a top ten D 8 times:

1998- 8th
1997- 6th
1996- 7th
1991- 3rd
1989- 1st
1987- 7th
1984- 2nd
1983- 9th

Actually, everyone knows about the offense and during Elway's tenure the average rank of the offense was 9.5. The average rank of the defense was 11.56. Not a whole lot different.

You have more of a point with Marino who had a top ten denfense only 4 times:
1998- 1st
1990- 4th
1984- 7th
1983- 1st

ps- Favre only had a top 10 D 7 times during his career.

and usually played with no running game

That is fairly true, but it's not like Brett had a hall of fame running game either. Marino's sucked for the most part, but Elway won his super bowls when he had a couple AMAZING running game seasons. All his super bowls he had a good running game.

1998- Terrell Davis, 2008 yards, 21 tds, 5.1 ypc (all lead the league)
1997- Terrell Davis, 1750 yards, 15 tds, 4.7 ypc (2nd in yards, 1st in tds, and 6th in ypc)
1989- Bobby Humphry, 1151 yards, 7 tds, all in only 12 starts. (8th in yards, and 7th in tds)
In 87 and 86, Winder was admittedly not impressive, however, the Broncos ranked in the top 10 in rushing td's both years. 87- 3rd, 86- 9th.

So as you can see, the misconception that Elway didn't have a defense or a running game is false.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Redskins_P

I forgot to add #10. I'm going with Bernie Kosar.

I love, LOVE Bernie Kosar (I was a big Browns fan back in the day) and I actually used to (kind of still do) throw a football side arm. It's weird, I know

Still, I don't know if he's top 10 for me. It'd be very, very close

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

1. Steve Young
2. Dan Marino
3. Otto Graham
4. Joe Montana
5. Roger Staubach
6. Bart Starr
7. Sammy Baugh
8. Brett Favre
9. Jim Kelly
10. Johnny Unitas

A list I put together using my criteria, but it's still off the top of my head, and rough around the edges. List excludes Peyton Manning for not being retired.

Not a bad list.
Here is mine:
1- Steve Young
2- Brett Favre
3- Joe Montana
4- Dan Marino
5- Otto Graham
6- Johnny Unitas
7- Roger Staubach
8- Jim Kelly
9- Fran Tarkenton
10- Peyton Manning

I have Peyton Manning 10th cause if he were to retire tomorrow, that's where he'd be in my book...possibly higher. I could easily see Manning as #1 by the time his career is over, and I'm sure Brady would make it too, but if he retired tomorrow he would not be in the top 10.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Not a bad list.
Here is mine:
1- Steve Young
2- Brett Favre
3- Joe Montana
4- Dan Marino
5- Otto Graham
6- Johnny Unitas
7- Roger Staubach
8- Jim Kelly
9- Fran Tarkenton
10- Peyton Manning

I have Peyton Manning 10th cause if he were to retire tomorrow, that's where he'd be in my book...possibly higher. I could easily see Manning as #1 by the time his career is over, and I'm sure Brady would make it too, but if he retired tomorrow he would not be in the top 10.

If Peyton retired tomorrow, he'd be no. 3 on my list.

I just chose to exclude him for the reason you explained at the top of the thread...he's probably going higher than that by the time he retires.

I'm not penalizing Young for the time he spent in San Francisco as a backup, and also in Tampa Bay. For the time he started for the 49ers, he did things that simply were never matched again, even by Marino who had better "tools" from the pocket.

Likewise, I wouldn't punish Peyton for only playing ten years. The only hurdles that Peyton has left en route to topping my list is to prove that he can still perform at a high level into his mid thirties and with coaching turnover.

And that he can outperform Tom Brady over the next few years.

We already know that Manning peaked at a higher level than any QB in history, he simply has to decline gracefully, as opposed to abruptly. No player in NFL history has been more valuable to his team over a 4 year span than Peyton Manning was to the Colts between 2003-2006.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I love, LOVE Bernie Kosar (I was a big Browns fan back in the day) and I actually used to (kind of still do) throw a football side arm. It's weird, I know

Still, I don't know if he's top 10 for me. It'd be very, very close

Kosar was definitely underrated, but his injuries over the years kept him from being a good QB over any long period of time. He only played in a full season 3 times in his career.

I am surprised Sonny Jergensen doesn't get more votes. He was better than Baugh as a QB.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

If Peyton retired tomorrow, he'd be no. 3 on my list.

I just chose to exclude him for the reason you explained at the top of the thread...he's probably going higher than that by the time he retires.

I understand. I just have trouble putting him higher just in case he starts to suck. It's hard to rank players when they are still playing. You are probably right though, he could deserve a 3 spot.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Kosar was definitely underrated, but his injuries over the years kept him from being a good QB over any long period of time. He only played in a full season 3 times in his career.

I am surprised Sonny Jergensen doesn't get more votes. He was better than Baugh as a QB.

I guess it depends. You have to stand on one side of the era adjustments or the other:

1) All player statistics are already representitive of the competition they faced and the weapons they had, and era adjustments are not necessary.

2) The game has changed in a way that has put past performances at a decisive disadvantage. We must adjust their accomplishments accordingly to some benefits the new rules would have given then.

I think saying that Sammy Baugh in his prime would throw for 6,000 yards every year in today's game is pretty ridiculous, but there have been enough rule changes over time that he didn't benefit from that I would say he would rank among the top 3 passers of the 90's with that sort of assistance. It's a tough thing, the toughest thing about all-time QB rankings.

I think it would be a totally reasonable argument for someone to say that Sammy Baugh's skill set (mental and physical) would produce a below average NFL QB today (and a sub-Jurgensen level QB in the 60s) because a lot of QBs today are just better than he ever was. I just tend to think that he was too great for that to be the case.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I guess it depends. You have to stand on one side of the era adjustments or the other:

1) All player statistics are already representitive of the competition they faced and the weapons they had, and era adjustments are not necessary.

2) The game has changed in a way that has put past performances at a decisive disadvantage. We must adjust their accomplishments accordingly to some benefits the new rules would have given then.

I think saying that Sammy Baugh in his prime would throw for 6,000 yards every year in today's game is pretty ridiculous, but there have been enough rule changes over time that he didn't benefit from that I would say he would rank among the top 3 passers of the 90's with that sort of assistance. It's a tough thing, the toughest thing about all-time QB rankings.

You definitely make good points, he did afterall lead the league in passing yards 4 times. However, he lead the league in int's 3 times, and even worse, threw 203 int's to only 187 passing tds. I can't put this guy in the top ten when he threw more ints than tds. He was one hell of a punter though.

[Dirtbag59]

I would say Ryan Leaf is the greatest of all time but that joke ain't funny.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by jsarno

You definitely make good points, he did afterall lead the league in passing yards 4 times. However, he lead the league in int's 3 times, and even worse, threw 203 int's to only 187 passing tds. I can't put this guy in the top ten when he threw more ints than tds. He was one hell of a punter though.

The (negative) value of an INT in 1937 was way, way less than it is now.

The INT to pass TDs ratio is totally acceptable for the era, and actually, is close enough to even to be an argument for Baugh's greatness.

However, if you want to make the argument that QB's have only improved since Baugh, and they should not be penalized for that simply because they play in an era where their skill set is more common, I'm at least on board with the way you are going with that.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag359

I would say Ryan Leaf is the greatest of all time but that joke ain't funny.

Leaf (2008)

[Hijinx]

I have to go Favre over Elway, the teams Elway was on were much better than Favre's. I can name a heck of a lot of really good RBs and WRs on those Broncos teams but I can't name hardy anyone really good like that for Green Bay. Quick name a pro bowl Packers RB in the last 15 years.

I also think when you talk about Favre it isn't just about the performance on the field. The guy is well loved by millions of fans who aren't Packer fans. The fact that he plays for a scrappy small market team, with history like none other only adds to the reverence fans have for him. The fact he came from a college no one ever heard of and he was nearly doomed to be a career backup. I loved the boyish way he had FUN playing the game , the gunslinger way he played it, and the fact he started over 250 straight games in some of the hardest playing conditions in the NFL. The guys has a "Joe Everyman" quality like no other sports star I can think of.

Statistically speaking or in terms of SB wins Favre may not be in the top ten but he'll always my favorite QB. (well non Redskin QB at least).