Portis and the Denver System Revisited
 

I happen to believe that Portis is one of the league's best backs. But if you do not believe that the Denver system makes backs look damn good, you are in denial and need help.

Well, this is my intervention. The formerly-Alex Gibbs-coached Denver line makes Quentin Griffin, Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis, Terrell Davis and just about every other back look awesome. Sure Terrell Davis and Clinton Portis were/are both great backs, but there's no doubt that the system made them really shine.

Portis averaged just 3.0 yards per carry (excluding that awesome 64-yard cut back for the TD) last week. Many said, you can't take away the 64-yard TD run. True enough, he got it, he's good, end of story as far as that week's stats are concerned. [FONT=Arial]BUT, taking away the 64-yard run was useful in examining how good the run-blocking really was and how quick Clinton was in hitting those holes. [/FONT]

Many then said, well, it was Tampa Bay's defense that limited Portis. Okay, well then, why was it that the Giants defense limited him to less than 70 yards and a 3.5 yards-per-carry average? The Giants defense has not been a powerhouse in awhile and the Eagles had a pretty easy time running ball in Week 1.

To give you some perspective, Troy Hambrick fared better last year in his ypc than Portis did last week against the G-men (or against the Bucs if you take away the 64-yarder). The running game is stinking up the stadiums and needs to improve for Gibbs to be successful.

For those of you who are about to have a sh-t-fit, take a deep breath. I know that Portis is great, I know that Bugel will shore up the run-blocking, and I know that it's only week 2. But, if you are not a little concerned about Portis' low ypc stat, Portis' apparent slowness in hitting the holes (when they exist), and the poor run-blocking, you should be.

I'm not concerned at all with the run blocking. Portis has to way for his blockers to open the hole instead of running on their hills and causing one of the fumbles. Portis gained 1,500 yds. for two consecutive seasons because of big one play yard gains. He also showed us that he can run a WR route and catch a TD if he has to. That's a play that we should use against Dallas.

I think that we have an issue with offensive line stability. The Broncos' line had the same coach and the same players I think more or less for many years. We have had players coached in a system from Spurrier that should not have been in the NFL as it became clear.

Now we are finally getting the proper coaching, but it does take some time to adjust, and this is true for the team as a whole. Teams don't transform themselves overnight. It takes time to reorient yourself to a new pole star (the new coaching staff and its methods).

Furthermore, we are still trying to adjust to the unfortunate loss of Jon Jansen. In two weeks we have put forward two starters at right tackle. We have instability on the offensive line.

Still you have to look at the results that players have and ask why those results are there. In the case of Clinton Portis, he is clearly showing his ability on more than the one long run, and his two year career is nearly unparallelled in NFL history.

Another thing to remember about the Broncos - they make very good choices about who to draft as running backs. It's not just the line. In baseball, look at the Oakland Athletics and their record drafting pitchers in low rounds who turn into Tim Hudson, Barry Zito, Mark Mulder and so forth. Teams can be good at drafting, particularly for certain positions.

I agree 100% with your assessment.

Portis hurt himself Sunday. When you fumble twice and allow the other team to get easy points, you take carries away from yourself. He had an excellent first drive and this may have continued if not for the turnovers.

I guess the Jags figured something out Sunday. Holding Quentin to 66 yards on 25 carries.

Anyway, the Broncos system certainly helps its running backs, but give it time here. Gibbs' system does a fine job as well.

The run blocking could certainly be better! Gibbs and Bugel would be the first to admit that. And no doubt Denver has a great system (which includes having great backs to run in it); what else explains their amazing production year after year? But Gibbs and Bugel are top of the line run coaches: they'll figure out just what works with this bunch. But all this takes TIME.

Look, we all said "Oh, the offense will take time to gell, the D will have to pick up the slack, etc." This is what that looks like! It ain't pretty, but we must go through this phase to get better. Further, (and this is a big deal, I think) the line has been hit with injuries. All the personel has rearely actually been on the field together. ANd Jansen is missing. But rest assured, it will come.

PS I am willing to bet that both Gibbs and Bugel have watched countless hours of Denver running game footage. THey know better than to try and reinvent the wheel.

I wholeheartedly concur jwsleep, it will take TIME and Gibbs will undoubtedly borrow anything that he thinks will help.

The argument I heard most often was that Portis was the wrong type of runner for Gibbs' system. This argument basically says that Gibbs is blind and dumb, and will continue to try to push a round peg into a square hole.

I think Gibbs is about results. You don't win three SBs with three different qbs and three different running backs by focusing on a "system". I think the Gibbs system is about playing physical, smart football. I know Gibbs will find a way to get the running game going. My bet is that once the running game gets going, and it will at some point, the passing game will likely prosper.

Continuity. It's what I've been begging for out of Snyder since he bought the team. It's what Denver has and we don't, a continuous unbroken philosophy. Plus they've shown an ability to identify the types of runners that will do well in their system and have been successful in drafting those kinds of guys.

Incidently, Griffin had 66 yards on 25 carries against the Jags. That's a 2.6 yard average. Is the magic gone?????

If you look at the tape of the fist two games. Portis was a beast on the first drives of the games. Then teams started to stack to box. THere is no team that can run with a stacked box. We must be able to throw it, then teams will back off and Portis will be able to kill them the whole game instead of on the opening drives.

Totally agree, Skins009.

Absolutley. Barry Sanders cant run vs eight in the box efficently. Teams have to respect our pass, which they dont right now. Why should they? We need to freaking air one for 80 yards and get teams to get some coverage out there. Well put skins009.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]I'm not concerned at all with the run blocking. Portis has to way for his blockers to open the hole instead of running on their hills and causing one of the fumbles. Portis gained 1,500 yds. for two consecutive seasons because of big one play yard gains. He also showed us that he can run a WR route and catch a TD if he has to. That's a play that we should use against Dallas.[/QUOTE]


Sunra, are you saying Portis doesn't know how to follow his block's? He may be the most instinctive back in the league at following block's, that's what the Denver Blocking scheme is predicated on, following your blocker's until a hole emerges then hit it, what you have to understand is, when you have a straight ahead blocking scheme, the hole is either there or it isn't, it doesn't allow for free lansing as a back, which takes away some of Portis's best attributes, any back can run through a gaping hole, and Portis has the speed to take it farther than most, but we are really not maximixing his abilities if we have him running stright ahead, he need's to be in a trapping type of running game in order to use his read and react abilitiy, we don't have to tranform the entire blocking phylosophy, but we could put in a couple of play's that Denver use to run for him to see if it help's, 50 mil for a back, I would change what ever I had to to make sure he succeed's, and no way does it have to be a dramatic change, football is about adjusting to your talent, well let's see what the coaches come up with.

i think the magic of the denver system is playing KC's defense twice a year...

[QUOTE=smootsmack]I guess the Jags figured something out Sunday. Holding Quentin to 66 yards on 25 carries.

Anyway, the Broncos system certainly helps its running backs, but give it time here. Gibbs' system does a fine job as well.[/QUOTE]

Its funny you mention that Smootsmack

I just got done checking out overall defense and scoring defense

Jacksonville is 2nd in the league in scoring defense. giving up 8 points a game and 9th in overall D

These numbers are nice but the mind boggling part of how good their defense has been is that they have been on the field for an astounding 35:30 average for both games they've played

Their defense has been on the field 11 minutes longer than their offense and theyre giving up 8 a game..

truly amazing

The Jaguars have a nasty defense. You could see them really starting to gel at the end of last season, and now they are just holdin it down. They were my 5-11 to 11-5 type team this season, and I still stand by that. They dont have any big names either, just a bunch of role players.

Yeah I guess there is a bit of a similarity between the Jags and Skins, in that the defense is carrying the team

If Skins fans think the Washington offense is having problems they should see the Jags. I still think both teams will do well though

And Fred Taylor remains my favorite non-Redskin in the league

Im glad you dont have their front 4 because your back 7 have been playing very well

Marcus Washington, not Arrington, is the best player on your defense

Well it looks like I am in the minority here. I didn't like the Portis trade...especially the second round pick we are giving up. I watched Portis do NOTHING against a tough defense like the Ravens...and have not really been a big fan. I would have loved for the Skins to have picked up LaMont Jordan...a big quick smash mouth back more in line with what we are accustomed to from a Gibbs offense.
I think we gave up too much for a back who won't be able to last the season.
Oh...this is my first posting and I want to say hello to all my fellow Skin Fans.
44Dive

Welcome to the board 44Dive!

What makes you say Portis won't be able to last the season?

champ didn't want to be here, so i don't want him here ;)... my biggest complaint on the offseason is overpaying brunell and our D-line beyond their talent...

Overpaying is Snyder's standard MO, he's lived for the spotlight since he bought the team and signing guys to big deals gets you on the news.

I think the deal with Denver is win-win, and will prove out to be just that. Is Portis the guy who's going to stick his nose in there and grind out the tough yards? No, but that's not why you get a player like Clinton Portis. And you don't bring back a Joe Gibbs to get the reincarnation of John Riggins, otherwise we would have traded for Mike Alstott instead of Portis. You get Portis because he has the ability to change a game every time he touches the ball. You bring back Joe Gibbs because he brings credibility and hopefully stability to the Skins in a time when we are woefully short on the former and in desparate need of the latter.

Portis will definitely last the season, he's a football player and last I checked we signed him to play football. And he misses any time, then we've got players in place who can step up, hopefully. The thing about Gibbs is that there is a method to his madness, he runs inside to set up the counter, he runs the counter to set up the play action, he runs motion to dictate matchups to the defense. Joe Gibbs is like Shaq, toilet paper and toothpaste, he's been proven to be effective.

Gibbs will right the ship, and our own runaway expectations will have to be more in line with reality. I want the Skins in the playoffs just as much as anyone else, but the playoffs don't start this weekend.

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]I happen to believe that Portis is one of the league's best backs. But if you do not believe that the Denver system makes backs look damn good, you are in denial and need help.

Well, this is my intervention. The formerly-Alex Gibbs-coached Denver line makes Quentin Griffin, Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis, Terrell Davis and just about every other back look awesome. Sure Terrell Davis and Clinton Portis were/are both great backs, but there's no doubt that the system made them really shine.

Portis averaged just 3.0 yards per carry (excluding that awesome 64-yard cut back for the TD) last week. Many said, you can't take away the 64-yard TD run. True enough, he got it, he's good, end of story as far as that week's stats are concerned. [FONT=Arial]BUT, taking away the 64-yard run was useful in examining how good the run-blocking really was and how quick Clinton was in hitting those holes. [/FONT]

Many then said, well, it was Tampa Bay's defense that limited Portis. Okay, well then, why was it that the Giants defense limited him to less than 70 yards and a 3.5 yards-per-carry average? The Giants defense has not been a powerhouse in awhile and the Eagles had a pretty easy time running ball in Week 1.

To give you some perspective, Troy Hambrick fared better last year in his ypc than Portis did last week against the G-men (or against the Bucs if you take away the 64-yarder). The running game is stinking up the stadiums and needs to improve for Gibbs to be successful.

For those of you who are about to have a sh-t-fit, take a deep breath. I know that Portis is great, I know that Bugel will shore up the run-blocking, and I know that it's only week 2. But, if you are not a little concerned about Portis' low ypc stat, Portis' apparent slowness in hitting the holes (when they exist), and the poor run-blocking, you should be.[/QUOTE]

I borrowed this from a Cowboys board and it describes what I have preached to a "T"

[quote]Inside the Numbers... C.Portis analysis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Portis has the barry sanders effect on his team... the majority of his runs are for low yardage totals, with a big run or 2 a game. not exactly what you want out of your RB. He does make some big runs but certianly not worht Champ Baily + a second rounder IMHO.

Game1:
3 or less yards: 20 rushes
4+ yards: 10 rushes
Game2:
3 or less yards: 13 rushes
4+ 7 rushes

Game1
64,21,16,9,7,7,5,5,5,4,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,-1,-2,-4,,

minus: 3
0-3: 17
4-10: 7
10+: 3

167 on 30 carries - 5.5 yards per rush

Game2
21,11,8,6,5,5,4,3,3,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,1,0,-2,-1,
minus: 2
0-3: 11
4-10: 5
10+: 2

74 yards on 20 carries 3.7 yards per rush\


Totals:

50 rushes for 241 yards
minus: 5
0-3 : 28
4-10: 12
10+ 5 [/quote]

66% of Portis' rushes have resulted in negative plays to 3 yards

:sleep:

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]:sleep:[/QUOTE]

so true Matty, so true....it's not often you hear the "sanders effect" being bad on a team

in game 1 he was running out the clock those last 8 or so snaps, and since we don't have a huge passing game right now everyone's bringing 8-9 into the box, and with an O-line that isn't run blocking as well as it could right now...

his numbers are fine, but until we get a passing game going, it'll be tougher, but even with stacked boxes he got 148 yards in a game.

ricky williams had the same problem, everyone stacked against him and his ypc went down, that's life... if you think champ/trung is better than springs/portis though, you're completely insane ;) trung was next to worthless, the step from champ to springs isn't as big as portis to trung, not even close.

that analysis is just a failure to see the big picture and getting too focused on numbers... portis will put up many more points than champ would prevent, and trung would not have been worth anything in a run heavy offense... not to mention talk about how portis isn't what you want in an RB coming from a fan of the boys (who start freaking eddie george) doesn't really mean much to me ;)

and you forgot to add in his pass plays i believe, as well as the runs that were touchdowns (if a 1 yarder is a TD, then you can't really do much better and those plays need to be marked...)

I think we need to cater to Portis' style a bit better. Portis is not really a between the tackle type guy. Let's seal the outside and let him use his speed and moves to make his oppurtunities. This won't allow us to run the ball as many times a game, at least not with a single back, but it will give Portis a better chance to do what he's good at. I'm not suggesting sweeps for every play, but between the tackles isn't his forte.

daseal, i totally agree... he's shown what he's good at, lets give him what he needs to be as successful as possible... hopefully the coaches have already thought of this though ;)

You're right Daseal. I also think we should start playing Betts some more, use him for the between the tackles running. And what about Rock and Chad? Why don't we use them out of the backfield as well?

if they can block, try dual backs TE and a couple WRs, thats a lot of threats to cover...

I know this thread is a few days old, but I wanted to revisit it once more because it doesn't look like Q has been too impressive the past two weeks.

at Jacksonville: 25 carries, 66 yards, 0 TD, 1 Fumble
vs San Diego: 12 carries, 7 yards, 0 TD, 1 Fumble

And of course, that fumble against the Jags pretty much cost the Broncos the game. So what's up with the system?

smoot, the "system" involves having a great RB (gone), a gelled O line, alex gibbs (gone), and playing KC twice a year... the second stringers are all putting up 120-200yds on those guys.

i can't believe they were insisting the portis keep playing for minimum wage with his kind of production...

Denver's rushing performance over the past two weeks may just be a hiccup, or it could be a sign that defenses are finally figuring out how to stop them. We all know now that Jacksonville has a great defense, so you'd expect a dropoff in the running game against them. But the Chargers? Well, actually their run defense is pretty stout, too. They're ranked 7th in rushing yards per game, and tied for 5th in the league at 3.2 yards allowed per carry.

So maybe it's just a case of facing two solid run defenses in consecutive weeks, or maybe there is something to be said for the effect of a great runningback and a great O-line coach on the success of a rushing attack. This is an argument that will take a couple of years to prove, one way or another. However, if Griffin remains healthy and fails to reach 1,000 yards on the season, I think it's safe to say that Denver's rushing attack lost something when it parted with Portis and Alex Gibbs.

Perhaps talent does matter a bit in their system, perhaps Griffin isn't the answer, or perhaps they're just struggling right now. Whatever it is I'm glad to have Portis on our side.

Portis's talent and drive is beyond obvious. he never just falls, always scraps till the very end, and if he's asked to run into a pile, its at FULL speed head all the way down (all 200 lbs of him).

i used to not believe in this 'vision' crap announcers would talk about runners having, but Portis proves it to me 1000%. that first 64yd cutback was him sensing that hole even tho he was supposed to go (and look) in the other direction. whenever he's stopped or going down, he'll jump north exactly where there's space, in between the tacklers legs, behind him, anywhere. he just senses it. never seen that instinct in a Skin's back. i loved Davis, cuz he made holes bigger than they were. i love Portis cuz he sees holes that aren't directly in front of him, more importantly, he can REACH them. he was awesome to watch on Monday, and he didnt even break any big ones.

I agree, ill. And I also think that right now Portis is very much trying to stay "within the offense" and not cut around like Barry Sanders. Until he really gets the feel of how the timing of Gibbs run game works, and until the o-line really gets it together, he's going to stay with the play and grind it out. But when it gels, look out. He's going to break some big ones.

I've also been impressed with just how good a receiver he is (and a blocker). And he never quits on a play. Sure, Denver has a good system (we'll see if it still works), but Portis is the real deal.

still kinda surprised we got that trade... springs has been healthy, so far i haven't missed champ... and walt harris is really good #3 too.

also on denver's system... its gonna be a few years before the OL there forgets or moves on from what AG taught them, so the falloff might not be immediate... but if QG puts ups 1200 this year, i'd be a bit surprised... well maybe not, depends on how many yards come from KC... that could be 400 right there.

The Portis run on second and goal was awful, you don't stop to look for an opening on the 1 yard line with a straight ahead running play, the entire defense was selling out, you do not have time to look for a hole, if he goes at it full bore he could have leaped over the pile, but because he stopped and then restarted he was done, that play alone showed me he's not made for running between the tackles, he does not have enough power, and he know's it.

Offiss, if you check the tape on that play you can see Portis gearing up to leap over the pile but a defender leaps over the pile right at that instant and Portis would have been crushed, that's why he stopped and looked for another hole.

Portis is going to be fine. The Denver system requires some talent, Q Griffin did start at OU the past couple of years so he's got some talent. I think Portis and Davis were two special backs who really understood the system, hence they were able to gain more yardage than other backs in that system.

I don't think it's the system, but more the philosophy and dedication to the running game. Gibbs has consistently churned out productive runners, but none with Portis's game changing ability. Portis is getting it, he's learning to trust the running lanes and get behind those pulling guards. And Gibbs will incorporate some sweeps and screens and tosses to take advantage of Portis' speed. But you don't run sweeps on Dallas because of the speed of their defense, you have to run right at them which Gibbs did and Portis was effective at doing that. The goal line call, well they just looked awfully rushed after that failed sneak and the play calling broke down. But I trust Gibbs, he'll fix it.