Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon]Whatever. It's water over the dam now. What's iomportant now is finding a way to assure that Patrick Ramsey is protected in 2006...[/QUOTE]

ahmen!

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

Pierce - The guy did a great job for us and I have no hard feelings. I think AP was the most "honest" of all these guys. He told the Redskins he'd seek the best deal he could and the Skins would have the chance to match any offer. He got his deal and the Skins decided not to match. Not to mention this is the guy's first (and maybe only) big payday so I'm not sure any of us would have handled it differently. I wish him the best, but I can't say the same for the Giants.

Smoot - Definitely one of my favorite Skins. The guy always played hard and played hurt. He was a team leader and I wish we coulda kept him. But I will defer to Williams here. The guy obviously seems to know what he's talking about when it comes to D, so who am I to argue? Smoot got a decent amount more from Minny, and I'm kind of glad we showed a little spending restraint. I think in this case both sides were a little hypocritical with their comments. We said we wanted to keep him and Smooty said he wanted to stay here, but at the end of the day it seems neither side was willing to budge much to make that happen. So I can only assume we didn't want him as bad as we said, and he didn't want to stay here as much as he indicated. I have no hard feelings here either. The saddest part of this whole thing is probably smootsmack's name change. I have great memories of Smoot as a Skin and this won't really tarnish them. I just wish he wasn't such close friends with Champ.

Coles - I've had time to calm down and think about it, but I still can't understand it. LC was my favorite Skin. I thought the guy was great and always played hard. He had great speed and instincts and usually made something out of nothing. Even on those brutal screens we kept running last year, LC was usually able to turn no gain into some gain. I just can't make sense of his logic here:
- LC would rather leave the Skins coached by JOE GIBBS, to go play for the freakin' JETS?????? Nothing against the J-E-T-S or Herm Edwards but what is this 1970? Is Joe Namath there? I can't understand this.
- LC didn't like the offense but he caught 90 balls! Only one WR in the NFL was thrown to more. Granted most were short routes but that's what the coach and team wanted (needed). Since when are WRs used exclusively deep? Maybe they should come up with new positions called SWR (short WR) and LWR (long WR).
- If LC was a free agent and decided to leave I'd still be upset for the reasons above, but he got a $13M bonus 2 years ago. I know he liked Spurrier blah blah blah. Well no one said Spurrier would be here 7 years so I don't think that argument holds up.
- He knew his cap hit would kill us and hurt the team that made him rich, but he didn't seem to care. As for the "$5M giveback", no one really knows the story and the bottom line is he gave nothing back.

I figure Snyder said "f*^k him", he'll sit for 2 years and watch from his flat screen. But my guess is that Gibbs decided that was not the best route for team chemistry and decided to dump him, despite the hideous cap hit. And I respect Gibbs for sticking to his offer of letting non-Skins go.

That being said we can't afford to bend over every time a player starts crying. I give Gibbs and the Skins a pass this time since LC was not Gibbs' signing. But I hope this is the last time we ever give in like this.

I do have hurt feelings from LC's departure. I guess he wasn't exactly the guy we all thought he was. I hope he's happy playing for the JETS in the friggin' AFC. So long and good riddance.

I'd hoped I'd have many great memories of Ramsey throwing TDs to LC all over the field. Instead I'll forever remember Coles as our $9 Million Dollar Baby.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

Crazy Cannuck - last time I checked Herm Edwards could get his team not just close, but into the AFC playoffs and should have been the AFC championship game. That's a far cry from 6-10 in the NFC.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

How many years did Herm Edward spend away from the sport before becoming a coach?

How many Super Bowl rings does Edwards have as a head coach?

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]Crazy Cannuck - last time I checked Herm Edwards could get his team not just close, but into the AFC playoffs and should have been the AFC championship game. That's a far cry from 6-10 in the NFC.[/QUOTE]

That's a fair point, but something tells me the team's record had little impact on Coles decision. He wants the ball deep.

Also maybe I'm a biased old man, but it amazes me that anyone that saw the Skins play in the 80s wouldn't want to play for Coach Gibbs. I guess times have changed.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

Canuck - Gibbs did great things in the 80's. But this ain't the 80's no mo. I'm sure it was hard being on that offense last year. When you have a defense like we had, you have to win more than 6 games. It didn't require a lot of points.

If I were a player Herm Edwards seems like the coolest coach in the league IMO.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

I'm also sick of the "how many rings does XXX have."

Gibbs won three rings a long time ago. It was a different game. So far he has yet to prove he can win in today's NFL. This isn't saying he can't, but I'm letting Gibbs record speak for itself. He had plenty of talent and the best defense in the NFC. That's a lot to work with and he just made a mess.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

A blast from the past...

"This is a very demanding job. It's a long grind and I feel that after 20 years as a head coach, there are other things that I need to do. I appreciate all the support, especially from former Redskins players in the area and again, I wish we would have come closer to the success those players enjoyed under Coach Joe Gibbs."

Hmmm. It would seem that there have been 'far far better men' that came before Coach Gibbs that have acknowledged his success.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]That's a lot to work with and he just made a mess.[/QUOTE]

He's cleaning up a mess from the previous HC.

;)

If you want to toss Gibbs' credentials aside, fair enough.

So explain what ye ol ball coach did to garner your complete support then??

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

[QUOTE=CrazyCanuck]I'd hoped I'd have many great memories of Ramsey throwing TDs to LC all over the field. Instead I'll forever remember Coles as our $9 Million Dollar Baby.[/QUOTE]

Lav "$9 million dollar baby" Coles

Has a nice ring to it

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

Matty - I've been critical of Spurrier too and said he needed to make some changes. Here are the main reasons.

Both coaches didn't TOUCH the defense. They left it up to their respective coordinators. Spurrier didn't get much help from Edwards (Lewis did a better job, but not like Williams), yet Spurrier scored more points per game, which was supposed to be what both coaches would do. I'm not totally tossing out his credentials, but is it or is it not a totally different game now? I mean, he knows his stuff, but the style of play has changed.

I've heard so many times how Gibbs was the master of half-time adjustments. Please name one critical half time adjustment Gibbs made this year? I saw our defense change after half-time, but never our offense. He seems to be a bit too stubborn to try something. I'm not saying Gibbs can't figure it out, but I feel like he's getting too much of a free pass.

The media thus far has been very soft on Gibbs, I'm curious if we go through more offensive struggles like we did last year if they'll continue to be that kind. Gibbs offense last year I'm shocked beat any other teams. Just watching it made me get sick to my stomach. Uninspired playcalling, and absolutely handcuffing Ramsey, we won't even talk about the Brunell era.

I want to see more innovation, more defensive spreading, and more fun from the skins. I don't care if we run the ball a lot, I rather like that. It's getting uber conservative with 15 minutes left to go and 7 points ahead. That's not going to hold it. Throw the ball some, spread the defense out with 4 WRs and run it. I feel we have A LOT of really solid talent on our Oline. Samuels, Jansen, Thomas, and Steven Seagal stunt double can push their man. How about we force them to take 8 out of the box and let Portis take it to the next level. I want some mixed up playcalling. Even opposing teams were talking about how easy the skins offense was to predict. When I heard players from other teams in the media they talked about being scared about what Spurrier could do, yet to hear anything like that about Gibbs.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

Here's a note to all the people who use the following as their knee-jerk retort:

"How many Super Bowl Rings does XXX have?"

Well, if that is the definitive criterion, answer this queston for me: Would you throw Joe Gibbs under the bus the instant that Chuck Noll said he'd like to try coaching again? Remember, Noll has four Super Bowl rings and never lost a Super Bowl game the way Gibbs did.

The correct answer xto that question is no, you wouldn't.

But it's not because of "the rings" and how many there are. If that is all it's about, you'd flip a coin between Joe Gibbs and Tom Brady as your coach. does that make any sense to anyone?

Joe Gibbs is one hell of a coach. But to players who are in thier 20s today, (such as L. Coles) what Givvs did in the 1980s is ancient history. Joe Gibbs' accomplishments are more similar to George Halas' accomplishments than they are to Bill Belichick's accomplishments.

We have Warpath posters here whose age preculdes them ever having seen some truly great players such as Jim Brown or Bobby Mitchell or Chuck Bednarik or NIght Train Lane. It is hard for them to put these players in perspective with current players; that's understandable. And that is why young players might not be awed by the idea of playing for Joe Gibbs. To some of then, he's a dinosaur that came back from the past. And the only frame of reference they have for such a situation is the movie Jurassic Park - - and that was not a totally pleasant experience.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]Matty - I've been critical of Spurrier too and said he needed to make some changes. Here are the main reasons.

Both coaches didn't TOUCH the defense. They left it up to their respective coordinators. Spurrier didn't get much help from Edwards (Lewis did a better job, but not like Williams), yet Spurrier scored more points per game, which was supposed to be what both coaches would do. I'm not totally tossing out his credentials, but is it or is it not a totally different game now? I mean, he knows his stuff, but the style of play has changed.

I've heard so many times how Gibbs was the master of half-time adjustments. Please name one critical half time adjustment Gibbs made this year? I saw our defense change after half-time, but never our offense. He seems to be a bit too stubborn to try something. I'm not saying Gibbs can't figure it out, but I feel like he's getting too much of a free pass.

The media thus far has been very soft on Gibbs, I'm curious if we go through more offensive struggles like we did last year if they'll continue to be that kind. Gibbs offense last year I'm shocked beat any other teams. Just watching it made me get sick to my stomach. Uninspired playcalling, and absolutely handcuffing Ramsey, we won't even talk about the Brunell era.

I want to see more innovation, more defensive spreading, and more fun from the skins. I don't care if we run the ball a lot, I rather like that. It's getting uber conservative with 15 minutes left to go and 7 points ahead. That's not going to hold it. Throw the ball some, spread the defense out with 4 WRs and run it. I feel we have A LOT of really solid talent on our Oline. Samuels, Jansen, Thomas, and Steven Seagal stunt double can push their man. How about we force them to take 8 out of the box and let Portis take it to the next level. I want some mixed up playcalling. Even opposing teams were talking about how easy the skins offense was to predict. When I heard players from other teams in the media they talked about being scared about what Spurrier could do, yet to hear anything like that about Gibbs.[/QUOTE]

The media has been soft on Gibbs?? A free pass? I hope you're kidding. It didn't take long at all for the media to forget about the return of the king stuff and start ripping him a new one on a weekly basis. Did you not see any of the "Gibbs should go" articles that were popping up on a weekly basis by midseason??

Who was scared of what Spurrier could do? Please. The only thing that was scary from Spurrier were his lame attempts at protection schemes and trying to run the football.

Gibbs is a Hall of Fame coach, I guess that's not impressive enough of a resume when compared to someone who scratches up ball plays in the dirt and pitches it around 50 times in a game because the weather is nice. But hey, to each his own I guess.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon]Here's a note to all the people who use the following as their knee-jerk retort:

"How many Super Bowl Rings does XXX have?"

Well, if that is the definitive criterion, answer this queston for me: Would you throw Joe Gibbs under the bus the instant that Chuck Noll said he'd like to try coaching again? Remember, Noll has four Super Bowl rings and never lost a Super Bowl game the way Gibbs did.

The correct answer xto that question is no, you wouldn't.

But it's not because of "the rings" and how many there are. If that is all it's about, you'd flip a coin between Joe Gibbs and Tom Brady as your coach. does that make any sense to anyone?

Joe Gibbs is one hell of a coach. But to players who are in thier 20s today, (such as L. Coles) what Givvs did in the 1980s is ancient history. Joe Gibbs' accomplishments are more similar to George Halas' accomplishments than they are to Bill Belichick's accomplishments.

We have Warpath posters here whose age preculdes them ever having seen some truly great players such as Jim Brown or Bobby Mitchell or Chuck Bednarik or NIght Train Lane. It is hard for them to put these players in perspective with current players; that's understandable. And that is why young players might not be awed by the idea of playing for Joe Gibbs. To some of then, he's a dinosaur that came back from the past. And the only frame of reference they have for such a situation is the movie Jurassic Park - - and that was not a totally pleasant experience.[/QUOTE]

Don't think that today's younger players don't know who Gibbs is and don't respect his accomplishments. When he walked in the room to address the team for the first time it was said you could hear a pin drop.

A Hall of Fame coach with 3 rings will bring respect in any era.

If Lombardi rose from the grave today and walked into a team's locker room, does anyone think "today's player" wouldn't respect him?

Today's player might not be awed by a coach like Gibbs, but I'd bet the majority of them have a huge amount of respect for him.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

Matty - The media was VERY kind to Gibbs. Any other person in DC that left Brunell in like that, managed the clock that well, and had as utterly miserable of a season would have been ripped to shreds by fans and media alike.

I respect Gibbs' accomplishments just like many of the players do. However, that's then and this is now. None of the players there have a super bowl ring from the 80's, and they don't care what he did then. They want someone who can help them win today.

While Spurriers protections wasn't great, a big part of the problem was helston. Samuels said he tried to change his blocking technique. There were definitely problems with Spurriers system, however Gibbs system isn't lighting it up.

I'm not saying Gibbs can't coach in the NFL. I'm basing it on last year - as his accomplishments should be based. Recent history.

I heard interviews before games saying players have seen what Spurrier could do with offensive playcalling and they didn't know what to expect. Certainly didn't hear that coming from anyones locker room this year about Gibbs!

One more note about the media. Last year it was all on the players. Year before all on the coach. That should be a slight indication. We had nothing but upgrades in personel and all of a sudden the players aren't doing their job?

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

Very kind? Perhaps not as harsh as they were on Spurrier during his 2nd year, but the criticism has definitely been there.

And if the criticism hasn't been has harsh as you may like, I know you don't want to hear it but perhaps it has something to do with the 3 trophies at Redskins Park and the bust in Canton. That deserves the benefit of the doubt for his first year back in the NFL in 12 years.

If the team stumbles again this year I think the criticism will definitely rise.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

Matty - I'm just saying they could have been much harder on Gibbs, and I'm sure there are some people that agree with me. Criticism has been there, but not in the same tone or as blatent with other coaches.

Listening to press conferences made me sick. No one asked him the hard questions, he got away with answering a lot of powderpuff questions. Not that he'd answer the hard questions anyways, but you should at least ask.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

I can't say I really remember Spurrier getting many hard questions relatively speaking then.

I mean Spurrier got "Are you not suited for the NFL?" and Gibbs got "Has the game passed you by"...really not much difference there

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

I say let's ax the excuses for justifying the animosity directed toward coach Gibbs. If you hate Joe Gibbs, just step up to the plate and say so.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

I don't think the media was especially kind to Gibbs or extremely harsh on him either. The consensus seems to be that he has the tools to get the job done and he's a fantastic person, but the game might have passed him by.

As to Spurrier, I think the attitude was comparable; the guy has the smarts to get the job done, but the Pros are different from the SEC.

For obvious (and good) reasons, many people in the media and here on the Warpath give a TON of deference to Gibbs. I think a lot of people had inflated expectations of what Gibbs could do to our team and a 6-11 season won't dispell many of those sentiments. They won't lose faith in Gibbs even if we go 7-9 next season. Any criticism of Gibbs (however well reasoned and supported by facts) is a heretical attack on the Lord and is just plain dumb.

Conversely, a lot of people haven't given Gibbs enough time to show what's he capable of - one season isn't enough time to judge a coach.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

Matty:

I have a bone to pick with you. You said in an earlier posting:

"He's cleaning up a mess from the previous HC."

"He" is Joe Gibbs in this context. I'm afraid that Joe Gibbs is cleaning up a mess left behind by the Redskins Front Office because they are the ones who assembled the crew of characters who were under contract when Gibbs arrived. OBC had some - but not final - input with regard to the offense but if you are to believe the mythology, he didn't even know the names of the defensive players. [I don't believe that for a moment, but that is the mythology.]

I agree that he has a mess to clean up. You know that I have been far more ctritical of the players on the field for their shortcomings than of the coaching staff for theirs over the past several years. But put the onus for the assemblage of "less than wonderful" players on the roster where it belongs. It belongs on the FO and not on OBC.

Re: Why the backstabbing?
 

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon]Matty:

I have a bone to pick with you. You said in an earlier posting:

"He's cleaning up a mess from the previous HC."

"He" is Joe Gibbs in this context. I'm afraid that Joe Gibbs is cleaning up a mess left behind by the Redskins Front Office because they are the ones who assembled the crew of characters who were under contract when Gibbs arrived. OBC had some - but not final - input with regard to the offense but if you are to believe the mythology, he didn't even know the names of the defensive players. [I don't believe that for a moment, but that is the mythology.]

I agree that he has a mess to clean up. You know that I have been far more ctritical of the players on the field for their shortcomings than of the coaching staff for theirs over the past several years. But put the onus for the assemblage of "less than wonderful" players on the roster where it belongs. It belongs on the FO and not on OBC.[/QUOTE]

Very true, but he's also trying to instill a team first attitude and change the culture of losing at Redskins Park, that's what I was trying to get at, but you're right as well.