Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;697699]I think you seriously underestimate both the illegal immigrant, and more importantly,the ethic they teach their children. I don't discount that there are illegals who are criminals, but I believe most (more than 51%) are trying to escape a life of poverty, and see the US as a way to a better life.

As for "very few people"... I worked a 12 hour night shift 4 days a week and maintained a full credit college semesters to earn my Bachelor's in Computer Science, and at the same time saw many others doing the same thing. People come to America because of the promise of a better life, and usually are willing to work as hard or harder to maintain it than those got it handed to them due to their birth.[/quote]


I am proud of your accomplishments but the majority of the population doesn't go to these extremes to better their lives.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=mredskins;697704]I am proud of your accomplishments but the majority of the population doesn't go to these extremes to better their lives.[/quote]

And I think alot of the immigrant (legal and illegal) population has always been of the mindset to go those extremes. I don't have the statistics, but you can look through our history and look at those populations that were poor, immigrant in nature, and how they raised their children to strive for a better life. That, in my opinion, is part of what made the US an amazing culture. And something that we lose in this immigration debate. But, I clearly am in the minority in my belief, and doubt it will change any time soon. There was a reason for the inscription on the Statue of Liberty. Sadly, it is not nearly as true anymore...

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;697708]And I think alot of the immigrant (legal and illegal) population has always been of the mindset to go those extremes. I don't have the statistics, but you can look through our history and look at those populations that were poor, immigrant in nature, and how they raised their children to strive for a better life. That, in my opinion, is part of what made the US an amazing culture. And something that we lose in this immigration debate. But, I clearly am in the minority in my belief, and doubt it will change any time soon. There was a reason for the inscription on the Statue of Liberty. Sadly, it is not nearly as true anymore...[/quote]


Well I think regardless if they end up in a "professional career" they still came here to strive for a better life.

I have a career and I went to a very good college but I have a modest home and decent cars but I am off every day at 5 and have every weekend off to spend time with my family, to me that is happiness. I have turned jobs down that pay more but require more of my time. My family makes me happy not a shiny BMW or a house in the Hills.

I guess we need to define "better life" to accurately say who is not striving for their dreams.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=saden1;697697]Buster is a blond and deserves only to be clowned and mocked. Unless you're feeling lucky today or make a habit of volunteering for root canals you shouldn't waste your time.

Buster, go fetch.[/quote]

Yeah, I was finished with the topic anyway, I regretted getting involved not long after I hit "Submit Reply."

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;697708]And I think alot of the immigrant (legal and illegal) population has always been of the mindset to go those extremes. I don't have the statistics, but you can look through our history and look at those populations that were poor, immigrant in nature, and how they raised their children to strive for a better life. That, in my opinion, is part of what made the US an amazing culture. And something that we lose in this immigration debate. But, I clearly am in the minority in my belief, and doubt it will change any time soon. There was a reason for the inscription on the Statue of Liberty. Sadly, it is not nearly as true anymore...[/quote]

I would agree that they come here for a better life but I think we are really talking about two different groups of Mexicans. One group goes through what it takes to do it the legal way to establish a place for their family so they have a better life. The other group are the illegals that come here to make money and ship it home so their family has a better life. The second group is the one that takes away jobs and resources because everything they do is done under the table.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=mredskins;697721]Well I think regardless if they end up in a "professional career" they still came here to strive for a better life.

I have a career and I went to a very good college but I have a modest home and decent cars but I am off every day at 5 and have every weekend off to spend time with my family, to me that is happiness. I have turned jobs down that pay more but require more of my time. My family makes me happy not a shiny BMW or a house in the Hills.

I guess we need to define "better life" to accurately say who is not striving for their dreams.[/quote]

I certainly think a Mexican, or Vietnamese, or Ethiopian or any of 100 third world country people would consider your life a definition a better life. A modest home, and decent car[B]S[/B]. Again, this is the arrogance of the US, (I realize arrogance rings full of negative connotations), there are billions of people on this planet who live in squalor and would not dream of attaining even half of the life that we in the US take for granted. It is not surprising that those who are able to get to the US, try come to our country in the hopes of beginning a new future. Again, I don't know the solution, but to demonize, and stereotype many men and women who are willing to uproot their whole life in the hopes that they might provide a better life for their children, only to find that they have become outcasts and criminals, is a shame to me.

I will not win this debate, but for closing, one last time: think of who these words were offering comfort and hope to:

"[I]Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp[/I]!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your [B]tired[/B], your [B]poor[/B],
[B]Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me[/B],
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;697699]I think you seriously underestimate both the illegal immigrant, and more importantly,the ethic they teach their children. I don't discount that there are illegals who are criminals, but I believe most (more than 51%) are trying to escape a life of poverty, and see the US as a way to a better life.

As for "very few people"... I worked a 12 hour night shift 4 days a week and maintained a full credit college semesters to earn my Bachelor's in Computer Science, and at the same time saw many others doing the same thing. People come to America because of the promise of a better life, and usually are willing to work as hard or harder to maintain it than those got it handed to them due to their birth.[/quote]
Well around 70% of illegals have below a high school education so I don't think thay are coming here to become doctors. They are coming here because they can find someone here to pay them what we call a low wage but in Mexico it about a mid level pay. So they make up for their lack of education to come here and work and send the money home. I think the figure is around 20 billion that is wired back to Mexico every year.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;697741]I certainly think a Mexican, or Vietnamese, or Ethiopian or any of 100 third world country people would consider your life a definition a better life. A modest home, and decent car[B]S[/B]. Again, this is the arrogance of the US, (I realize arrogance rings full of negative connotations), there are billions of people on this planet who live in squalor and would not dream of attaining even half of the life that we in the US take for granted. It is not surprising that those who are able to get to the US, try come to our country in the hopes of beginning a new future. Again, I don't know the solution, but to demonize, and stereotype many men and women who are willing to uproot their whole life in the hopes that they might provide a better life for their children, only to find that they have become outcasts and criminals, is a shame to me.

I will not win this debate, but for closing, one last time: think of who these words were offering comfort and hope to:

"[I]Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp[/I]!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your [B]tired[/B], your [B]poor[/B],
[B]Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me[/B],
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"[/quote]

I am really not trying to debate at all, I felt like I was agreeing :confused:

I just want to make a point you don't have to be all rolled up in Beverly Hills to be considered successful.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=firstdown;697732]I would agree that they come here for a better life but I think we are really talking about two different groups of Mexicans. One group goes through what it takes to do it the legal way to establish a place for their family so they have a better life. The other group are the illegals that come here to make money and ship it home so their family has a better life. The second group is the one that takes away jobs and resources because everything they do is done under the table.[/quote]

Most recent immigrants sent money back home and there's nothing wrong with that. The truth these second group of immigrants pay taxes when they go grocery shopping, pump gas at the gas station, rent an apartment, SS and Medicare tax on their fake SS numbers. These people make next to nothing and if they were citizens they wouldn't pay any taxes on these minimum wage jobs. What do they make? 15K a year?

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Buster;697555]Racist. The word you use when you can't dispute a fact.

:Flush:




Ironic, isn't it.[/quote]

Actually if you can't beat the race card with your argument then go back to the drawing board, that is the simplest argumnet to defeat for those with facts right?

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=firstdown;697732]I would agree that they come here for a better life but I think we are really talking about two different groups of Mexicans. One group goes through what it takes to do it the legal way to establish a place for their family so they have a better life. The other group are the illegals that come here to make money and ship it home so their family has a better life. The second group is the one that takes away jobs and resources because everything they do is done under the table.[/quote]

I really don't think it's that cut and dry. One of the main issues we haven't adequately dealt with is the INS; The path to citizenship for immigrants is broken and outdated. And so many of these people have to wait years in line, for a variety of reasons, to become legal citizens. We need to reform the system as much as we need to deal with the border issue, undocumented workers, and people that have overstayed their visas. That's why this Arizona law is a band aid at best. It's all about "catching people", but does nothing to curb the the influx of people coming across the border or encourage legal citizenship.

There has to be action at the federal level to cut at the root of the issue. But then we, too, need to know how to deal with those who have been here for years, raised families in earnest, and want to become legal citizens.

The longer we become a nation of immigrants, legal and illegal, the more difficult it will be to solve the problem. I think we can and should put millions of people on a fast track to citizenship by overhauling the INS.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

Not sure I understand what the problem is. If someone is speeding, police can ask them for ID. If they are here illegally then they are in trouble.

All of the other countries of the world have consequences for illegally entering their jurisdiction. Now, most are very severe and i'd like to think we're better than countries that issue sentences like 12 years of hard labor. The fact is the US politicians really don't care who's here.

There's a process for one to gain entry to the US and we have to honor that. I'd like to think there will come a time where folks who gain access to the US actually get in some trouble or are at least sent back home.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=mredskins;697744]I am really not trying to debate at all, I felt like I was agreeing :confused:

I just want to make a point you don't have to be all rolled up in Beverly Hills to be considered successful.[/quote]

My bad. I completely mistook your response. Sorry

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;697754]My bad. I completely mistook your response. Sorry[/quote]


No worries and thanks for the lady liberty words. :headbange

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=12thMan;697750]I really don't think it's that cut and dry. One of the main issues we haven't adequately dealt with is the INS; The path to citizenship for immigrants is broken and outdated. And so many of these people have to wait years in line, for a variety of reasons, to become legal citizens. We need to reform the system as much as we need to deal with the border issue, undocumented workers, and people that have overstayed their visas. That's why this Arizona law is a band aid at best. It's all about "catching people", but does nothing to curb the the influx of people coming across the border or encourage legal citizenship.

There has to be action at the federal level to cut at the root of the issue. But then we, too, need to know how to deal with those who have been here for years, raised families in earnest, and want to become legal citizens.


The longer we become a nation of immigrants, legal and illegal, the more difficult it will be to solve the problem. I think we can and should put millions of people on a fast track to citizenship by overhauling the INS.[/quote]
Back in 2002 they did a study and the cost to fast path all illegals would cost us billions each year to the tune of about 7,500 per person (maybe thats per family). Last time I check we did not have any money left so I guess we can just throw that on our children along with everything else. The AZ law is going to help fix the problem there but your right this is more of a federal issue.

This is a good read for what the cost for illegals back in 2002 so I'm guessing these numbers are low.
[URL="http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html"][COLOR=#810081]Center for Immigration Studies[/COLOR][/URL]