How far can Beck take us?

[Kope]

Beck, like anyone else, should get a fair and neutral evaluation when he is on the field. There are numerous examples of late blooming QBs who moved around, got cut etc, until they found a situation that fit them.

Rich Gannon, Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner are the ones that I can think of right off the top of my head (there are many more). I am defining good as - can be a part of a team that wins games....not stats alone.

[GusFrerotte]

Originally Posted by Kope

Beck, like anyone else, should get a fair and neutral evaluation when he is on the field. There are numerous examples of late blooming QBs who moved around, got cut etc, until they found a situation that fit them.

Rich Gannon, Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner are the ones that I can think of right off the top of my head (there are many more). I am defining good as - can be a part of a team that wins games....not stats alone.

I agree that Beck deserves aa shot, but history is not on his side. Dilfer sucked, but was on a TB team with a defense that could carry a team. Gannon was good for only for a relatively short time in my book. Warner was hot for what 4 seasons til the Rams ran out of gas?

[GusFrerotte]

Originally Posted by mooby

Let's compare Shanahan to Spurrier.

Shanahan: 2 time Super Bowl winner.

Spurrier: Thought training camp served no purpose.

Shanahan: Can turn no name running backs into all-stars.

Spurrier: Had like 2 different pass protections - total. And both sucked.

Shanahan: Took a crappy QB in Jake Plummer out of a bad situation in AZ and turned him into a decent game manager.

Spurrier: Doomed Patrick Ramsey's career from the start. Now Ramsey is nothing but a journeyman, can't even settle in as a backup.

See where I'm going with this?

How many titles did Shanny win without a guy named John Elway or a team that wasn't put together by Dan Reeves and co? Plummer was just fine in AZ, just had a crap team around him. I loved those OT bomb fests between him and Gus back in '96. Plummer was just fine as a QB before Shanny took him. Cutler and Orton are Shanny's boys if you ask me, and they aren't the hottest things in the QB world. I am not knocking SHanny, but trying to make this guy out to be a some sort of coaching god is not right. He wasted Plummer, and all those hot RBs and solid Wrs he supposedly created by not getting to the big dance post Elway. In the weakest division in the NFL no less. Spurrier wanted to see if his system could work in the NFL, he was proven wrong and went back to NCAA where he belonged. Snyder was dumb for thinking it would work in the first place. Shanny was placed as HC on a loaded team that was already built for him, with a HOF QB. He was the right guy at the right time. IF Elway didn't hate Reeves, Reeves would have won two titles, not Shanny.

[Kope]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

How many titles did Shanny win without a guy named John Elway or a team that wasn't put together by Dan Reeves and co? Plummer was just fine in AZ, just had a crap team around him. I loved those OT bomb fests between him and Gus back in '96. Plummer was just fine as a QB before Shanny took him. Cutler and Orton are Shanny's boys if you ask me, and they aren't the hottest things in the QB world. I am not knocking SHanny, but trying to make this guy out to be a some sort of coaching god is not right. He wasted Plummer, and all those hot RBs and solid Wrs he supposedly created by not getting to the big dance post Elway. In the weakest division in the NFL no less. Spurrier wanted to see if his system could work in the NFL, he was proven wrong and went back to NCAA where he belonged. Snyder was dumb for thinking it would work in the first place. Shanny was placed as HC on a loaded team that was already built for him, with a HOF QB. He was the right guy at the right time. IF Elway didn't hate Reeves, Reeves would have won two titles, not Shanny.

How many SBs did Elway loose before he won two? They were only champions when they were together...however, Shanahan still was in the playoffs a bunch.

[sportscurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by mooby

Let's compare Shanahan to Spurrier.

Shanahan: 2 time Super Bowl winner.

Spurrier: Thought training camp served no purpose.

Shanahan: Can turn no name running backs into all-stars.

Spurrier: Had like 2 different pass protections - total. And both sucked.

Shanahan: Took a crappy QB in Jake Plummer out of a bad situation in AZ and turned him into a decent game manager.

Spurrier: Doomed Patrick Ramsey's career from the start. Now Ramsey is nothing but a journeyman, can't even settle in as a backup.

See where I'm going with this?

mooby:

I am with you on the comparison until the very last line.

Patrick Ramsey was destined for journeyman status in the NFL from the start. Steve Spurrier did not consign him to that status...

[mooby]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

mooby:

I am with you on the comparison until the very last line.

Patrick Ramsey was destined for journeyman status in the NFL from the start. Steve Spurrier did not consign him to that status...

That's up for debate. But I won't debate you on that one, because I never watched Ramsey in college so I wouldn't have had the slightest clue if he was doomed to fail by the time he stepped on a college football field.

[GusFrerotte]

I am all for giving Beck a fair shake and I really hope he does make me eat crow, but common sense based on historical precedent, doesn't bode well for MR. Beck. I also think that Shanny and the FO know what they are doing. They know drafting a QB this season without shoring up the O line and upgrading the WR corp with tall, physical athletes would have been a waste. We need a massive upgrade in all positions. I think Beck is just there to backup Rex and possibly get the fans excited about something in what might be a .500 type record year. For the record, I think Shanny is a very good coach, but I don't think you can use the two SB titles as an example of how good he is since that team was built already before he was HC.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

I am all for giving Beck a fair shake and I really hope he does make me eat crow, but common sense based on historical precedent, doesn't bode well for MR. Beck. I also think that Shanny and the FO know what they are doing. They know drafting a QB this season without shoring up the O line and upgrading the WR corp with tall, physical athletes would have been a waste. We need a massive upgrade in all positions. I think Beck is just there to backup Rex and possibly get the fans excited about something in what might be a .500 type record year. For the record, I think Shanny is a very good coach, but I don't think you can use the two SB titles as an example of how good he is since that team was built already before he was HC.

I'm definitely not calling Shanny a coaching god, I'm simply saying he's an established coach with established credentials. He's nowhere near as bad a coach as Spurrier was. And using Beck as a way to drum up excitement for the team has to be the most asinine thing I've ever heard of. He's getting pounded on every message board, every tv station, and almost every website for his decision to go into the season with John Beck and Rex Grossman as his guys. He's staking his reputation on these guys. At least give him some benefit of the doubt. He has shown an ability to do things with lesser talent in the past.

[GusFrerotte]

Originally Posted by mooby

I'm definitely not calling Shanny a coaching god, I'm simply saying he's an established coach with established credentials. He's nowhere near as bad a coach as Spurrier was. And using Beck as a way to drum up excitement for the team has to be the most asinine thing I've ever heard of. He's getting pounded on every message board, every tv station, and almost every website for his decision to go into the season with John Beck and Rex Grossman as his guys. He's staking his reputation on these guys. At least give him some benefit of the doubt. He has shown an ability to do things with lesser talent in the past.

What do you mean? Everyone is talking about Beck, and whether he can do it or not!! That is drumming up interest!!!!!!!! Getting folks to talk, etc is still ginning up publicity. Jerry Jones and the Cowboys have stayed in the limelight using these type of tactics. If they didn't, nobody would give a rat's ass about them. Same with the Redskins. The new thing now among celebrities is to always stay in the headlines, even with negative publicity. You can't tell me the Cowboys haven't made $$$$$$$$$$$ off of their soap opera existence the last 15 years. And Snyder has Jones tactics down pat as well. How else can you be one of the richest sports franchises in the world and always putting out a crap product?

[mooby]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

What do you mean? Everyone is talking about Beck, and whether he can do it or not!! That is drumming up interest!!!!!!!! Getting folks to talk, etc is still ginning up publicity. Jerry Jones and the Cowboys have stayed in the limelight using these type of tactics. If they didn't, nobody would give a rat's ass about them. Same with the Redskins. The new thing now among celebrities is to always stay in the headlines, even with negative publicity. You can't tell me the Cowboys haven't made $$$$$$$$$$$ off of their soap opera existence the last 15 years. And Snyder has Jones tactics down pat as well. How else can you be one of the richest sports franchises in the world and always putting out a crap product?

You might be right about negative publicity still being publicity and all that, but starting John Beck is not a publicity move. Look at it like this: Do you think Snyder wants to win, or make money? Granted, he wants to make both. But winning is at the top of his agenda, because there's no doubt if the Redskins were winning consistently, he'd make even more money than he's making now.

Shanny is staking his future on these two qb's. If he didn't think they were capable of being a starting quarterback, we would've traded for, signed, or drafted someone that could be.

Being a coach is not about publicity stunts. It's about winning games. To think that Shanny would rather care about publicity than winning football games is asinine, because if he doesn't win games he won't stick around. And the bottom line is that Shanny and Bruce Allen are running this team, not Dan Snyder. You think Dan Snyder would go out and give 27 mil to a defensive end with minimal starting experience? Please.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by mooby

You might be right about negative publicity still being publicity and all that, but starting John Beck is not a publicity move. Look at it like this: Do you think Snyder wants to win, or make money? Granted, he wants to make both. But winning is at the top of his agenda, because there's no doubt if the Redskins were winning consistently, he'd make even more money than he's making now.

Shanny is staking his future on these two qb's. If he didn't think they were capable of being a starting quarterback, we would've traded for, signed, or drafted someone that could be.

+1 I was thinking the same thing about Beck vs Kolb:

Originally Posted by me from another forum

Imo people/many fans have a hard time separating a QB's individual talent from the context of their surroundings.

How much of Kolb's success is due to the Eagles FO, scheme, coaching, and surrounding talent?

How much of Beck's 'failure' was due to Miami's FO, scheme, coaching and surrounding talent?

That's why a proper assessment of skillset is important.

I don't think their is a huge difference between the skillset of Kolb vs John Beck.

But, even in this forum the perception is that Beck is barely more physically talented then Rex Grossman.

I think its a safe bet that if Beck wins the starting job here he'll put up better numbers then Kolb.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

What do you mean? Everyone is talking about Beck, and whether he can do it or not!! That is drumming up interest!!!!!!!! Getting folks to talk, etc is still ginning up publicity. Jerry Jones and the Cowboys have stayed in the limelight using these type of tactics. If they didn't, nobody would give a rat's ass about them. Same with the Redskins. The new thing now among celebrities is to always stay in the headlines, even with negative publicity. You can't tell me the Cowboys haven't made $$$$$$$$$$$ off of their soap opera existence the last 15 years. And Snyder has Jones tactics down pat as well. How else can you be one of the richest sports franchises in the world and always putting out a crap product?

The Paris Hilton of the NFL.

[GusFrerotte]

Originally Posted by saden1

The Paris Hilton of the NFL.

Exactly, but it is more than just the Cowboys or Skins. Look at all the other dysfunctional teams. They get free press. It is the new thing in marketing, just generate controversy, good or bad, as long as you get your name or product out there with some cheap publicity. Cowboys suck, Skins suck, and the Raiders under AL Davis suck, but get big press and always have full houses on gameday. You have the Lions always under the blackout threat because folks in the Detroit area aren't going to part with their hard earned cash so quickly for some shitty football. Plus with the winless streak over, the Lions don't generate much hype or controversy. Jones, Davis, or Snyder aren't dumb, they know the easier route to making $$$$$$$$$$, and that isn't winning unfortunately.

[NLC1054]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

I am all for giving Beck a fair shake and I really hope he does make me eat crow, but common sense based on historical precedent, doesn't bode well for MR. Beck. I also think that Shanny and the FO know what they are doing. They know drafting a QB this season without shoring up the O line and upgrading the WR corp with tall, physical athletes would have been a waste. We need a massive upgrade in all positions. I think Beck is just there to backup Rex and possibly get the fans excited about something in what might be a .500 type record year. For the record, I think Shanny is a very good coach, but I don't think you can use the two SB titles as an example of how good he is since that team was built already before he was HC.

...Yeah, no it wasn't. The Broncos were in no way "built" before Shanahan was there. Shanahan was the one who put Rod Smith on the field. Shanahan drafted Terrell Davis. Mike Shanahan added McCafferty. Shanahan helped build the o-line with guys like Mark Schlereth, Shanahan bought in guys on the defensive guys on the ball.

The Broncos had been surviving on the talent of John Elway alone for years. There's a reason the Broncos got blown out in every single Super Bowl before Shanahan got there; they did a crappy job putting any sort of team around him. No run game, bad wide receivers.

Shanahan helped build a team around Elway that helped him win those two Super Bowls. The idea that Mike had little or nothing to do with those Denver Broncos teams winning is patently false and wrong headed.

[SFREDSKIN]

No one knows what Beck can do, rookie year doesn't count. I'm all for giving him a chance. He was great in college, is athletic, has a couple of years on the bench learning and just might surprise a lot of people. I would love to see him win the starting QB position.