Democratic debates

[MTK]

Not a big issue eh? For tax revenue alone it's huge.

http://time.com/4037604/colorado-marijuana-tax-revenue/

And then there's the issue of our overcrowded prisons, wasted law enforcement $$, etc.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by MTK

Not a big issue eh? For tax revenue alone it's huge.

Colorado Brings in $70 Million in Pot Tax Revenue

And then there's the issue of our overcrowded prisons, wasted law enforcement $$, etc.

Matty hate to burst the bubble. But you have to keep the dollar values in perspective. 70 million doesn't even register as a drop in the bucket for a state's budget. It is by monetary definition, a very small issue.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by That Guy

drug deals/drug violence kill more americans than isis or putin. legalization increases revenue, lowers jail populations, and results in harm reduction by removing it as a grey/black market item with no legal framework for oversight or regulation.

not saying that it's the end all/be all, but it is a practical/pragmatic solution. like prohibition, making it illegal really hasn't done much to slow the demand.


as for taxes, the US gets a much larger share of it's revenue through income taxes compared to most countries, which rely more heavily on consumption/service taxes instead, which is why there's always so much hand wringing about it.

I feel like I'm having a coversation with a bunch of stoners. Eye on the ball, That Guy. Most drug deaths and violence is not tied to weed, it's tied to narcotics. And nobody in their right mind would suggest it's in the best interests of society to legalize heroin or cocaine because of the explosive addictive nature combined with major health and death risk.

Legalizing marijuana will not reduce drug related deaths significantly. Legalizing narcotics would trade criminal drug deaths for many many more overdose deaths.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Matty hate to burst the bubble. But you have to keep the dollar values in perspective. 70 million doesn't even register as a drop in the bucket for a state's budget. It is by monetary definition, a very small issue.

Colorado's total revenue in 2014 was ~7.8 billion. So pot tax was about .9% of their total revenue picture.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Colorado's total revenue in 2014 was ~7.8 billion. So pot tax was about .9% of their total revenue picture.

Exactly. I'm not a Coloradan (Coloradoan? Colorodite?) but I am a Pennsylvanian. If PA were to legalize and tax it, I'd be fine with it because live and let live, but how can anyone possibly consider it a big issue?

What's bigger, raising 1% of revenues, or figuring how to best spend the existing 99%?

Whatever, legalize it or don't, I don't care. But you guys are REALLY stretching if you think it's a big consequential thing.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Exactly. I'm not a Coloradan (Coloradoan? Colorodite?) but I am a Pennsylvanian. If PA were to legalize and tax it, I'd be fine with it because live and let live, but how can anyone possibly consider it a big issue?

What's bigger, raising 1% of revenues, or figuring how to best spend the existing 99%?

Whatever, legalize it or don't, I don't care. But you guys are REALLY stretching if you think it's a big consequential thing.

It's like a 3rd tier issue IMO...but it's a subject that intertwined with larger problems: justice system reform, drug war in Mexico & failed US drug war, and immigration and our loose border.

[MTK]

The rabbit hole is much deeper than taxes. How about what keeping it illegal costs us.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/marij...n_3123397.html

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Not true, Marijuana is their biggest cash crop and money maker do to the amount of demand based the enormous amount of users compared to the heroin, meth and cocaine users. Cocaine consumption is way, way down. Regardless, the cartels aren't hurt because they have a ton of business verticles these days...drugs, extortion, human traffic, etc. .

I know we're basically in agreement, the cartels won't be affected by whatever the US does with weed. But do you have any facts to back up your assessment that marijuana is the biggest cash crop?? Remember, a Kilo of heroin and a kilo of weed have very different street values.

Weed has higher demand but you're not talking about the same price, not even remotely.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by MTK

The rabbit hole is much deeper than taxes. How about what keeping it illegal costs us.

Marijuana Prohibition Now Costs The Government $20 Billion A Year: Economist

Matty, again, he's saying it costs all state and federal governments combined $20 billion. Do you know what the federal budget is, in total? $3.8 trillion. So let's not even bother adding in the 50 state budgets into that and just stick with the $3.8 trillion.

$20 billion as a % of $3.8 trillion is 0.5%.

If I convert that in terms of the NFL salary cap, because you know I like that shit, 0.5% of the $153 million salary cap is $765,000. In other words it's one veteran minimum (! lol) salary player.

It's not a big issue.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I know we're basically in agreement, the cartels won't be affected by whatever the US does with weed. But do you have any facts to back up your assessment that marijuana is the biggest cash crop?? Remember, a Kilo of heroin and a kilo of weed have very different street values.

Weed has higher demand but you're not talking about the same price, not even remotely.

yeah...there is a ton of different data out there, but hectares of tweed grown is mexico is down. Poppy is way up over the last 5 years. in comparison of cartel price based on seizure figures, if you give the cartel max price of 5,000 for kilo of heroin and the farmer wholesale price (the lowest possible for cartel) of $25 for marijuana still totals due to volume is much higher for marijuana. cheap marijuana not going away, but the cartel marketshare certainly dented due to legalization in the US.

These figures don't take into consideration of cartels marijuana grows in the US, this has become preferable. You could probably add an additional 10-15% in total kilo.

cash crops hay, sugar still higher than marijuana at this point.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

yeah...there is a ton of different data out there, but hectares of tweed grown is mexico is down. Poppy is way up over the last 5 years. in comparison of cartel price based on seizure figures, if you give the cartel max price of 5,000 for kilo of heroin and the farmer wholesale price (the lowest possible for cartel) of $25 for marijuana still totals due to volume is much higher for marijuana. cheap marijuana not going away, but the cartel marketshare certainly dented due to legalization in the US.

These figures don't take into consideration of cartels marijuana grows in the US, this has become preferable. You could probably add an additional 10-15% in total kilo.

cash crops hay, sugar still higher than marijuana at this point.

Can I please see some of that data? Or I'm calling bullshit.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Can I please see some of that data? Or I'm calling bullshit.

dude seriously? First take the link from the "Drug threat assessment" report from the DEA I first posted which will give you the volume.

Following heroin's path from Mexico to the Midwest | The Washington Post

heroin resurgent report from the post...cartel price of 5K which actually seems a little high.

Then $25 a kilo farmer price!!!!...I mean, Im giving on the absolute bottom price for a farmer in the mexico. You can probable add 50%(again minimum) on top of that for the cartel because he is the one-stop, wholesale purchaser.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Matty, again, he's saying it costs all state and federal governments combined $20 billion. Do you know what the federal budget is, in total? $3.8 trillion. So let's not even bother adding in the 50 state budgets into that and just stick with the $3.8 trillion.



$20 billion as a % of $3.8 trillion is 0.5%.



If I convert that in terms of the NFL salary cap, because you know I like that shit, 0.5% of the $153 million salary cap is $765,000. In other words it's one veteran minimum (! lol) salary player.



It's not a big issue.

I understand in terms of the numbers, but all this over a relatively benign substance, putting people in prison and ruining lives over it, is absurd.

And $20b is still $20b, I'm sure that could be allocated more wisely.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by MTK

I understand in terms of the numbers, but all this over a relatively benign substance, putting people in prison and ruining lives over it, is absurd.

And $20b is still $20b, I'm sure that could be allocated more wisely.

Yeah no argument that its about as benign as alcohol and tobacco, maybe even more so. But it's a freakin recreation. We have serious injustices to deal with in this country, from healthcare costs and coverage to equal pay for women to how we deal with international terror threats, etc. etc.

You can't prioritize a recreational activity over these much more serious matters, not on the basis of $ cost and not on the basis of the gravity of the impact on the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness (the most important being life).

[That Guy]

who's saying we're prioritizing it? i'm just saying it makes sense to do things that make sense. the cons of legalization are pretty low, so it's not like there's a strong financial or safety risk compared to some of the more intractable issues.

again,, you're saying :why don't we deal with terror first" because terror is an arbitrary term and kills less americans than drug violence. how many americans died to foreign terrorism last year?

if we're prioritizing harm reduction, international terrorism falls very low on the list. alcohol and drugs land much much higher. and people definitely die to pot deals too, any time you put big money and people that aren't afraid of committing crimes in the same place, bad things can happen.