My evaluation of Shanahan starts now

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

It's all going to come down to whether or not RG3 is a top QB. They have to hit on RG3 and hit big.

I agree with this 98%. They could miss on RGIII and still have a chance to salvage their coaching careers and the teams fortunes. That "chance" being Kirk Cousins. If by some odd happenings that RGIII fails and Kirk steps in and blows up, then nobody is going to remember the RGIII bust of a trade. They're just going to remember getting a all-pro QB in the 4th round.

Bottom line is that they need to hit big on one of the 2 QBs drafted this year.

[REDSKINS4ever]

Bruce Allen is not going to fire Mike Shanahan. Sure, he could but Shanahan told Snyder from the start that it was going to take time to build this Redskins team into a contender. RG3 is not going to fail. I just don't see it. As soon as the offense comes together, which could very well be this year, the Redskins will be posting 12-4/13-3/14-2 kind of records. And don't forget the Redskins defense is capable of being a top 5 defense.

Sure, the Redskins could have waited on Matt Barkley or Landry Jones in the future instead of trading those picks in order to get Griffin III, but Bruce Allen and Mike Shanahan felt that the team could be able to compete now if they had the right quarterback and that right quarterback is Robert Griffin III.

[The Goat]

I'm surprised nobody has balked at the premise of the thread (title). Why on earth would an evaluation of Shanahan NOT begin two years ago...unless you're a total homer for Shanahan and want to "throw out the bad data?"

Mike has made myriad mistakes over the last two years. Every decision at QB has been errant up to RGIII. McNabb was a mistake. Rex a mistake. Beck a mistake. Campbell today is better than any of them so the honest observer would add getting rid of him was a mistake. Jamaal Brown was a huge mistake.

And that's just on the roster side. Bringing his kiddo (Kyle) was a mistake, as was not upgrading defensive coordinator at the first possible chance e.g. Wade Phillips goes to Houston and makes one of the worst defenses in the league (right there w/ the Skins after the 3-4 switch) to a top 5 defense in ONE year. Mike and Wade already worked together so why didn't Wade come aboard?

It's also noteworthy that our two best targets on offense (Davis and Moss) are guys Mike inherited, rather than developed.

Mike gets credit for making the team younger (depth) and RGIII. Hopefully things come together this year and we see results, but as someone else said I won't be the least bit surprised if Mike never wins the division or a playoff game in Washington.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I'm surprised nobody has balked at the premise of the thread (title). Why on earth would an evaluation of Shanahan NOT begin two years ago...unless you're a total homer for Shanahan and want to "throw out the bad data?"

Mike has made myriad mistakes over the last two years. Every decision at QB has been errant up to RGIII. McNabb was a mistake. Rex a mistake. Beck a mistake. Campbell today is better than any of them so the honest observer would add getting rid of him was a mistake. Jamaal Brown was a huge mistake.

And that's just on the roster side. Bringing his kiddo (Kyle) was a mistake, as was not upgrading defensive coordinator at the first possible chance e.g. Wade Phillips goes to Houston and makes one of the worst defenses in the league (right there w/ the Skins after the 3-4 switch) to a top 5 defense in ONE year. Mike and Wade already worked together so why didn't Wade come aboard?

It's also noteworthy that our two best targets on offense (Davis and Moss) are guys Mike inherited, rather than developed.

Mike gets credit for making the team younger (depth) and RGIII. Hopefully things come together this year and we see results, but as someone else said I won't be the least bit surprised if Mike never wins the division or a playoff game in Washington.

So to give some insight into the 'pass' that I give Shanahan for the past two years it's based on a couple of major circumstances.

1. The final 2009 roster that he inherited was probably one of the worst in the entire NFL. Just for context our leading rusher that day was Quinton Ganther. Our leading receiver, Malcolm Kelly, our second leading tackler was Kareem Moore.. Our WR depth chart was Moss, Randle-El, Thomas, Kelly and former great Marko Mitchell. Our RB were Quinton Ganther and Marcus Mason. Our OL that day was Stephon Heyer, Dockery, Rabach, Edwin Williams and Levi Jones. Our DL featured Andre Carter, Phillip Daniels, Corneilus Griffin, Albert Haynesworth, Renaldo Wynn and Anthony Montgomery-ALL of which are now out of the league.

Matter of fact 33 of the 53 man roster on the final day of that season are no longer in the NFL. Hell, even 10 of the 12 on our injured reserve are out of the league! (only Doughty and Rinehart remain) There was not much to build on at all and only 2 top level players in Rak and Fletcher. A complete overhaul was needed. Gibbs left Zorn an old, mismatched roster that was built for a 2008 playoff run but no long term sustainability. That's why the comparisons to the Lions and 49ers are flawed, they had SOMETHING to build off of. This was a 3-4 year project to begin with.

Quick final note to add, from the 5 draft classes that preceded Shanahan there are a total of 4(!!!) players on the 2012 roster. Reed Doughty, Fred Davis, Rob Jackson and Brian Orakpo. 4 players from 5 classes and only 2 starters. By far the worst in the league.

2. This is the first fully functional offseason of his tenure. 2010 had stunted free agency because of the labor discord and 2011 of course had the lockout and no offseason program. For most teams it didn't have the same impact as it did with us but don't discount the time that was missed. Even this offseason was impacted by the cap penalties, but that was self inflicted.

Those are the major factors of why I give the coaching staff a 'pass' from the previous two years. No question mistakes were made. Campbell could have been retained to play out his contract rather than wasting time and picks/money on McNabb, Rex and Beck. They probably could have done a complete housecleaning in 2010 and not tried to 'go for it' with old retreads like Willie Parker, Larry Johnson and Joey Galloway. The Jammal Brown debacle could have been avoided. For the coaching side, I've got no issues with Kyle YET-but let's see what he does now that he has talent that can execute his scheme. Haslett has been fine, we improved in '11 and should do so again in '12.

[Skinzman]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

So to give some insight into the 'pass' that I give Shanahan for the past two years it's based on a couple of major circumstances.

1. The final 2009 roster that he inherited was probably one of the worst in the entire NFL. Just for context our leading rusher that day was Quinton Ganther. Our leading receiver, Malcolm Kelly, our second leading tackler was Kareem Moore.. Our WR depth chart was Moss, Randle-El, Thomas, Kelly and former great Marko Mitchell. Our RB were Quinton Ganther and Marcus Mason. Our OL that day was Stephon Heyer, Dockery, Rabach, Edwin Williams and Levi Jones. Our DL featured Andre Carter, Phillip Daniels, Corneilus Griffin, Albert Haynesworth, Renaldo Wynn and Anthony Montgomery-ALL of which are now out of the league.

Matter of fact 33 of the 53 man roster on the final day of that season are no longer in the NFL. Hell, even 10 of the 12 on our injured reserve are out of the league! (only Doughty and Rinehart remain) There was not much to build on at all and only 2 top level players in Rak and Fletcher. A complete overhaul was needed. Gibbs left Zorn an old, mismatched roster that was built for a 2008 playoff run but no long term sustainability. That's why the comparisons to the Lions and 49ers are flawed, they had SOMETHING to build off of. This was a 3-4 year project to begin with.

Quick final note to add, from the 5 draft classes that preceded Shanahan there are a total of 4(!!!) players on the 2012 roster. Reed Doughty, Fred Davis, Rob Jackson and Brian Orakpo. 4 players from 5 classes and only 2 starters. By far the worst in the league.

2. This is the first fully functional offseason of his tenure. 2010 had stunted free agency because of the labor discord and 2011 of course had the lockout and no offseason program. For most teams it didn't have the same impact as it did with us but don't discount the time that was missed. Even this offseason was impacted by the cap penalties, but that was self inflicted.

Those are the major factors of why I give the coaching staff a 'pass' from the previous two years. No question mistakes were made. Campbell could have been retained to play out his contract rather than wasting time and picks/money on McNabb, Rex and Beck. They probably could have done a complete housecleaning in 2010 and not tried to 'go for it' with old retreads like Willie Parker, Larry Johnson and Joey Galloway. The Jammal Brown debacle could have been avoided. For the coaching side, I've got no issues with Kyle YET-but let's see what he does now that he has talent that can execute his scheme. Haslett has been fine, we improved in '11 and should do so again in '12.

Really good post. I knew Shanallen inherited a very poor team, but those numbers are downright scary from the 09' roster and the draft classes that preceded this regime.

Here is an interesting article that could lend some hope as well.

Redskins wins in 2012: How many you got?

Given how close we were in so many games, and we did it with a turnover machine at QB. Rex could move the ball, but when it comes to the redzone, you need one of three things imo (All three would be near unstoppable in the redzone)

1) You need a tall receiver to go up and make a catch over the DB's. We didnt have that.

2) You need a QB with a gunslinger arm. So they can fit the ball into tight spaces since the end zone brings a lot less space for the DB's to cover. Grossmans major problem, he tried to be Brett Favre while possessing a noodle arm. Interception, here I come.

3) You need a dominant power running OL. Which will most likely never happen in a ZBS.

Im intentionally not including a running attack from the QB since I want RG3 to stay healthy. Cam Newton/Tim Tebow proved that can work as well.

We had zero of 3 last year. If RG3 develops, we have 1 of 3, and if Briscoe develops, we may have a second. He showed some of that last year in Tampa.

With a QB like Grossman, you need to hit on a whole lot of long distance TD's because he wont get it done on a regular basis in the red zone, he just doesnt have the arm. Not to mention that he doesnt have the arm to connect on many long passes.

Im still not predicting a winning season, but if we stay relatively healthy, I believe 8-8 or close is realistic.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

So to give some insight into the 'pass' that I give Shanahan for the past two years it's based on a couple of major circumstances.

1. The final 2009 roster that he inherited was probably one of the worst in the entire NFL. Just for context our leading rusher that day was Quinton Ganther. Our leading receiver, Malcolm Kelly, our second leading tackler was Kareem Moore.. Our WR depth chart was Moss, Randle-El, Thomas, Kelly and former great Marko Mitchell. Our RB were Quinton Ganther and Marcus Mason. Our OL that day was Stephon Heyer, Dockery, Rabach, Edwin Williams and Levi Jones. Our DL featured Andre Carter, Phillip Daniels, Corneilus Griffin, Albert Haynesworth, Renaldo Wynn and Anthony Montgomery-ALL of which are now out of the league.

Matter of fact 33 of the 53 man roster on the final day of that season are no longer in the NFL. Hell, even 10 of the 12 on our injured reserve are out of the league! (only Doughty and Rinehart remain) There was not much to build on at all and only 2 top level players in Rak and Fletcher. A complete overhaul was needed. Gibbs left Zorn an old, mismatched roster that was built for a 2008 playoff run but no long term sustainability. That's why the comparisons to the Lions and 49ers are flawed, they had SOMETHING to build off of. This was a 3-4 year project to begin with.

Quick final note to add, from the 5 draft classes that preceded Shanahan there are a total of 4(!!!) players on the 2012 roster. Reed Doughty, Fred Davis, Rob Jackson and Brian Orakpo. 4 players from 5 classes and only 2 starters. By far the worst in the league.

2. This is the first fully functional offseason of his tenure. 2010 had stunted free agency because of the labor discord and 2011 of course had the lockout and no offseason program. For most teams it didn't have the same impact as it did with us but don't discount the time that was missed. Even this offseason was impacted by the cap penalties, but that was self inflicted.

Those are the major factors of why I give the coaching staff a 'pass' from the previous two years. No question mistakes were made. Campbell could have been retained to play out his contract rather than wasting time and picks/money on McNabb, Rex and Beck. They probably could have done a complete housecleaning in 2010 and not tried to 'go for it' with old retreads like Willie Parker, Larry Johnson and Joey Galloway. The Jammal Brown debacle could have been avoided. For the coaching side, I've got no issues with Kyle YET-but let's see what he does now that he has talent that can execute his scheme. Haslett has been fine, we improved in '11 and should do so again in '12.

It's a good post, even if we disagree on Mike's approach to the rebuild.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I'm surprised nobody has balked at the premise of the thread (title). Why on earth would an evaluation of Shanahan NOT begin two years ago...unless you're a total homer for Shanahan and want to "throw out the bad data?"

My view is that drafting a rookie QB effectively buys the HC at least 2 seasons for the sake of the QBs development and organizational stability.

I'm ready to kick back and enjoy the show.
I love Griffin as a prospect and I'm excited to see what Kyle can do with him.
Bring on the pistol formation and the read-option baby!

[takethecake]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I'm surprised nobody has balked at the premise of the thread (title). Why on earth would an evaluation of Shanahan NOT begin two years ago...unless you're a total homer for Shanahan and want to "throw out the bad data?"

Mike has made myriad mistakes over the last two years. Every decision at QB has been errant up to RGIII. McNabb was a mistake. Rex a mistake. Beck a mistake. Campbell today is better than any of them so the honest observer would add getting rid of him was a mistake. Jamaal Brown was a huge mistake.

And that's just on the roster side. Bringing his kiddo (Kyle) was a mistake, as was not upgrading defensive coordinator at the first possible chance e.g. Wade Phillips goes to Houston and makes one of the worst defenses in the league (right there w/ the Skins after the 3-4 switch) to a top 5 defense in ONE year. Mike and Wade already worked together so why didn't Wade come aboard?

It's also noteworthy that our two best targets on offense (Davis and Moss) are guys Mike inherited, rather than developed.

Mike gets credit for making the team younger (depth) and RGIII. Hopefully things come together this year and we see results, but as someone else said I won't be the least bit surprised if Mike never wins the division or a playoff game in Washington.

The thing is about the QB situation, what could he have done differently that would have been significant? Because of the dearth of talent on the team, it's not like we could have thrown in someone else and been instant playoff contenders. Shanny has done a great job improving our front 7 on D without breaking the bank, and that process takes time. We would have been set at secondary if Landry had stayed healthy and if we weren't handcuffed by that absurd DHall contract.

There are certainly areas of the team lacking talent, but he just hasn't had the ammunition to address them all in the short time he's been here. Okay, I'll concede we could have used the picks we gave up for mcnabb and jammal, but if brown had been able to stay healthy that would have been a great move to get a 1st round pick RT.

Bottom line: like everyone's said, everything he's done so far pales in comparison to the RG3 move. He's made a hell of a lot better decisions than Vinny, but his career still rests with RG3's success or failure

[MTK]

My hopeless optimism must be kicking in, I think this team can go 9-7 and be in the wildcard hunt.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

My hopeless optimism must be kicking in, I think this team can go 9-7 and be in the wildcard hunt.

Same boat here. If Bob can approximate the type of player many think he can be then he could be worth 3 wins over last year. If we get more performance out of other positions (just a little which isn't a crazy thought since Bob could bring everyone's game up) then we're talking 10 wins maybe. Not in the "likely" category but not as crazy as the "experts" would have everyone believe.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

My hopeless optimism must be kicking in, I think this team can go 9-7 and be in the wildcard hunt.

I'm with you and I don't consider it hopeless optimism:

5 wins in 2011
+1 win from our young players developing
+3 wins because we now have a QB and won't start Beck

sum: 9 wins

[JoeRedskin]

I think this team has made significant strides in organization and acquiring talent for long term success. As others have noted, the prima donnas are gone. Universally, the players comment on the fairness of the coach in all competitions.

The Shannies have made a couple of their own blunders, McNabb being the most obvious one. Grossman/Beck? ehhh. Not a lot of options out there last year and certainly no one for whom it was worth trading the farm. At the same time, the McNabb fall-out put them in a hole of their own making as to the QB.

Personally, I think the rot was deep in the organization when Shanny got here and that it was due to Mr. Cerrato. An aging team with talent needed to be rebuilt both in terms of its depth and in terms of the culture of favoritism that seemed to exist within the building. I mean, if it was obvious to the fans, I would imagine it was pretty obvious to the players. How many times did we comments from departing players during the Cerrato era "they'll value guys outside the team more than the guys who grew up here" (I think that was a pretty close quote from either Antonio Pierce or Ryan Clark).

As others have said, it is now all up to Shanny's roll of the dice with RGIII. Barring the wheels coming off the machine (which I think highly unlikely), I think Shanahan has guarranteed he gets his 5 years at this point.

I am optimistic. I think, though slighty less talented than the team he inherited, Shanahan has built a younger, deeper team that has talent and depth. The top 22 may not be as talented as the team he inherited, but I think the top 40 are much, much more talented than the top 40 of the team he got.

Wins and losses are the bottom line and Shanahan has yet to produce that. Personally, I think this is the year he does. We play a tough, tough schedule so I don't think we make 12 wins, but I think double digit wins are attainable if RGIII puts in a year as good as or better than A. Dalton did last year. We don't need Cam Newton numbers but we do need solid play. I believe RGIII will do that based on what I have seen.

Now, if you pardon me, I have a whole gallon of kool-aid to finish.

P.S. - It's all Vinny's fault.

[53Fan]

We have a tough schedule this year but 9-7 doesn't seem that farfetched to me. We beat the SB champion Giants twice last year and that doesn't happen very often. We should be much improved this year and if our online can get and stay healthy that will be a definite plus. Also can anyone remember having faith in our QB to get the job done last year? Even with Cousins I feel better about the position and he's a backup.

[MTK]

I look at the last 2 years as the team needing to take a couple of steps back in order to move forward.

This is the year I'm expecting that step forward in the win column.

[JoeRedskin]

Shanahan told Danny it would take 5 years to reboot the franchise. I am pretty much in agreement with that concept. I don't give Shanahan a "pass" for his first two years but I, as Matty said, sometimes you gotta step back. He gutted his original roster and completely changed the franchise's approach to roster building. Along the way, quality players have been let go and other acquisitions have not lived up to expectations. At the same time, I believe that the foundation for long term winning may have been laid.

For me, this is the year for Shanahan to really show "the step forward". I am hopeful that it is. Between our schedule, division and rookie QB, however, I think double digit wins would be too much to ask. 8-8, 9-7, on the other hand seems attainable.