For all you D Hall lovers

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I think there is no way to say with confidence that someone has or doesn't have heart on the field. If I recall correctly, when Brunell was playing hurt back in 2004 (or maybe it was '06) he was being ripped for being selfish and refusing to sit out when he was clearly hurt. But I guess he had heart.

Selfishly, I'd like the team to keep Springs. He can still play the game and is one of our best and smartest players when he's on the field (which is more often than not). But I also know that from a monetary standpoint it may be best to let him go. And I know that Shawn Springs has too much going on with his life to need to put up with fans accusing him of having no heart every step he takes.

I think there is no way to say with confidence that Springs gives a crap what fans say about him... unless you or I are shawn springs, we cant know for sure what is going on in his head. all we have to do is look at the evidence as we see it and make our own judgements. this isnt a court of law. its a court of public opinion. Springs has done nothing to endear himself to fans. He has done nothing to earn his salary last year and he has done nothing to show he's worth 8.5M in 2009. If Springs were making the vet minimum and pushed himself to be in games, that would be one thing. But he's been making an insane amount of money to do next to nothing. If springs choses to restructure and extend his contract to stay here at a reasonable rate for a guy with his history of making the team wonder whether hes going to play or not all week, every week, then my opinion of him will change. If he retires, my opinion of him will change.

However, when he refuses to restructure, gets cut by the Skins, and then signs with Dallas within a week for a fraction of what he would have made here, then we'll see how you feel about him then. I can feel sympathy for Springs as a person with his off-field trials just like i can feel sympathy for Reed Doughty... but at the end of the day, its what they do on the field that counts. If you cant get on the field, or if you don't play well when you are on the field, you cant expect to be on the team and you certainly cant expect fans to love you. If feeling that way makes me a cold-hearted sob, then i guess thats what I am.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Hall is in some very good company there. Why anyone wouldnt want him is beyond me.

The same reason no one wanted TO when he was cut by the iggles a couple years back, yet you could hold his stats up w/the best in the biz too. The cowpokes were the only team that would pay him. Likewise, Hall wasn't claimed off waivers by anyone when the raiders cut him, so NO nfl team thought he was worth the deal he signed w/oakland.

Hall is the TO of db's. I hope the dude has matured & isn't such a self absorbed prick, but I think he played well this year for one reason - he wants a big contract. He could be the best in the biz but he doesn't want to be coached & he alienates his teamates.

C. Mortensen reported that the week before he got cut the raiders were hosting atlanta. He had a cookout for some of his old teamates, but "had a lot of food left over." This guy seems to be almost universally hated everywhere he goes, and its a shame cause he has the physical ability to be great. I would hate to see us sign him & trade Rogers, it could impact chemistry in a very bad way.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I think there is no way to say with confidence that Springs gives a crap what fans say about him... unless you or I are shawn springs, we cant know for sure what is going on in his head.

Sure, but I'm not the one who said he had "no heart" or even brought such an intangible factor into the discussion.

all we have to do is look at the evidence as we see it and make our own judgements. this isnt a court of law. its a court of public opinion. Springs has done nothing to endear himself to fans.

Nothing? Really?

He has done nothing to earn his salary last year and he has done nothing to show he's worth 8.5M in 2009. If Springs were making the vet minimum and pushed himself to be in games, that would be one thing. But he's been making an insane amount of money to do next to nothing.

He was hurt last year, but you'd like him to give back the money due to him in exchange for the vet min?

However, when he refuses to restructure, gets cut by the Skins, and then signs with Dallas within a week for a fraction of what he would have made here, then we'll see how you feel about him then.

I'd always thought he would end his career in Arizona actually (but Dallas is a possibility I suppose). If he does that, I'd miss him as a player on the Redskins but I'd wish him the best as he'd be closer to home and family.

I can feel sympathy for Springs as a person with his off-field trials just like i can feel sympathy for Reed Doughty... but at the end of the day, its what they do on the field that counts. If you cant get on the field, or if you don't play well when you are on the field, you cant expect to be on the team and you certainly cant expect fans to love you. If feeling that way makes me a cold-hearted sob, then i guess thats what I am.

But you don't seem to want to evaluate his performance on the field.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

The same reason no one wanted TO when he was cut by the iggles a couple years back, yet you could hold his stats up w/the best in the biz too. The cowpokes were the only team that would pay him. Likewise, Hall wasn't claimed off waivers by anyone when the raiders cut him, so NO nfl team thought he was worth the deal he signed w/oakland.

Hall is the TO of db's. I hope the dude has matured & isn't such a self absorbed prick, but I think he played well this year for one reason - he wants a big contract. He could be the best in the biz but he doesn't want to be coached & he alienates his teamates.

C. Mortensen reported that the week before he got cut the raiders were hosting atlanta. He had a cookout for some of his old teamates, but "had a lot of food left over." This guy seems to be almost universally hated everywhere he goes, and its a shame cause he has the physical ability to be great. I would hate to see us sign him & trade Rogers, it could impact chemistry in a very bad way.

I'm sure the same things were brought when NE traded for Moss. Although it is funny that anytime I mention Moss, people say "well they were winning in NE, so he behaved". Well, when Hall came to the Redskins, we were not winning, and he played extremely well.

I hope the dude has matured & isn't such a self absorbed prick, but I think he played well this year for one reason - he wants a big contract.

This is a damn if you do/damn if you don't situation. If he had sucked...or not contribute much at all to the defense, what would you be saying now? If you were up for a raise in your job, wouldn't you want to do your best?

[Paintrain]

I'd think that most rational Redskins fans would agree that we'd be best served going into next season with a defensive backfield that contained Springs, Hall, Rogers, Smoot, Horton and Landry. Whether we're able to make that happen is a big question mark but if we are able to re-sign Hall and we don't trade Rogers then starting Hall and Rogers at CB with Springs and Landry at the safety spots would give us the best DB grouping the league.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

The same reason no one wanted TO when he was cut by the iggles a couple years back, yet you could hold his stats up w/the best in the biz too. The cowpokes were the only team that would pay him. Likewise, Hall wasn't claimed off waivers by anyone when the raiders cut him, so NO nfl team thought he was worth the deal he signed w/oakland.

Hall is the TO of db's. I hope the dude has matured & isn't such a self absorbed prick, but I think he played well this year for one reason - he wants a big contract. He could be the best in the biz but he doesn't want to be coached & he alienates his teamates.

C. Mortensen reported that the week before he got cut the raiders were hosting atlanta. He had a cookout for some of his old teamates, but "had a lot of food left over." This guy seems to be almost universally hated everywhere he goes, and its a shame cause he has the physical ability to be great. I would hate to see us sign him & trade Rogers, it could impact chemistry in a very bad way.

TO was a 30+ year old locker room cancer everywhere he ever played. What on earth has Hall done in the past two years that even comes close to comparing to anything TO has done. The comparision is so absurd, i cant beleive even you take it seriously.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

TO was a 30+ year old locker room cancer everywhere he ever played. What on earth has Hall done in the past two years that even comes close to comparing to anything TO has done. The comparision is so absurd, i cant beleive even you take it seriously.

He had a BBQ and had a ton of food left. The nerve!

[44ever]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I'm sure the same things were brought when NE traded for Moss. Although it is funny that anytime I mention Moss, people say "well they were winning in NE, so he behaved". Well, when Hall came to the Redskins, we were not winning, and he played extremely well.



This is a damn if you do/damn if you don't situation. If he had sucked...or not contribute much at all to the defense, what would you be saying now? If you were up for a raise in your job, wouldn't you want to do your best?

Really great points here Ruhskins

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

The same reason no one wanted TO when he was cut by the iggles a couple years back, yet you could hold his stats up w/the best in the biz too. The cowpokes were the only team that would pay him. Likewise, Hall wasn't claimed off waivers by anyone when the raiders cut him, so NO nfl team thought he was worth the deal he signed w/oakland.

Hall is the TO of db's. I hope the dude has matured & isn't such a self absorbed prick, but I think he played well this year for one reason - he wants a big contract. He could be the best in the biz but he doesn't want to be coached & he alienates his teamates.

C. Mortensen reported that the week before he got cut the raiders were hosting atlanta. He had a cookout for some of his old teamates, but "had a lot of food left over." This guy seems to be almost universally hated everywhere he goes, and its a shame cause he has the physical ability to be great. I would hate to see us sign him & trade Rogers, it could impact chemistry in a very bad way.

Getting rid of Rogers, who was universally regarded as an 'arrogant punk' by the people covering the team every day could impact chemistry in a very bad way?

It's so funny how people let their entire perception of someone be formed by what they hear in the national media. The hilarious thing about D. Hall is before he played for Bobby Petrino and had his on field blowup with him, there were no concerns about his attitude in Atlanta. He was widely considered one of the top CB in the game and expected to be an all pro for years to come. He plays for a coach that even Warrick Dunn (WARRICK DUNN!) had nothing but negative words about, then went to an even worse, more dysfunctional organization than the Falcons were and now he's a terrible, overrated CB who's a major character risk. Really?

[MTK]

This whole thing about Springs and lack of heart is pretty stupid.

The guy was hurt and couldn't play, end of story. If he was able to play he would have been out there. He gutted it out plenty of times before yet that seems to escape our memories.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Sure, but I'm not the one who said he had "no heart" or even brought such an intangible factor into the discussion.

Fair, but as I also said, its my opinion and its just as valid as yours. i feel i have far more evidence to show he has lost his heart for the game than you have to show he hasnt.

Nothing? Really?

The goodwill he had when he came here has slowly deteriorated over the years as his performance and availability for games has declined. He was a question mark every single week last year. sometimes he played, sometimes he didnt. he (allegedly) secretly went and aired dirt in the media two seasons ago. when you listen to him on the radio, its obvious he is just in it for the money, and doesnt care about staying in Washington.

He was hurt last year, but you'd like him to give back the money due to him in exchange for the vet min?

dont be ridiculous. he was grossly overpaid last year. we all know it. Springs knows it. we're suckers and he's milking us for all we're worth. Its very smart from his perspective as he's getting money no one else would pay him... but from the team perspective, its foolish.

I'd always thought he would end his career in Arizona actually (but Dallas is a possibility I suppose). If he does that, I'd miss him as a player on the Redskins but I'd wish him the best as he'd be closer to home and family.

He'd love to play on the same team as his bff Terrell Owens. the fact that Springs is so close with Owens is all we really need to know about his character.

But you don't seem to want to evaluate his performance on the field.

i know he's started only 29 of his last 48 regular season games and been paid handsomely for it. I also know that in 3 of the last 4 years, he only had one interception a year. i know he defended 7 passes in 2008 and made about a million bucks for each of them. I know at this point in the his career, he would make a very good free safety if he could stay healthy, which is a huge question mark.

i know if he really wants to play football, and if he really wants to play football for the redskins, we will be more than willing to give him a new contract that pays him more than anyone else would pay him to play safety... i'm also 90% certain that Springs would reject such an offer. id like nothing for than for him to prove me wrong, but we'll see where Springs is on opening day 2009.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

What do you define as not panning out? How will hall singlehandedly cost us wins for many years in the future? you use the term win and year in the plural sense, which seems to imply Hall somehow has the ability to singlehandely lose more than one game per year for us, for atleast 3 years. Please spell this out for me because i dont see how Hall, even if he ends up playing at a lowly fred smoot level (which is HIGHLY unlikely), would singlehandedly result in us losing multiple games over a course of several years? it seems to be a ridiculous, outlandish statement, and i would really like to know what youre basing it on.

Why is him playing at Smoot's level highly unlikely? For his entire Atlanta career, he played at about the same level Smoot did.

Stats I have go back to 2005:

2005 Smoot 7.2 YPA, SR 52%
2005 Hall 7.4 YPA, SR 52%

2006 Smoot 6.7 YPA, SR 58%
2006 Hall 8.5 YPA, SR 46%

2007 Smoot 5.3 YPA, SR 43%
2007 Hall 7.2 YPA, SR 48%

All courtesy Pro Football Prospectus 2006, 2007, and 2008 respectively.

Hall was like 11 YPA in Oakland this year and like 5ish in Washington. Unquestionably, this was the famed "career (half) year". His early production doesn't suggest we would be wrong to average the results. It suggests that any advantage a young DeAngelo Hall had over a in-his-prime Fred Smoot is based on something besides his ability to cover.

Notice the bold type: I pointed out last year that Smoot's production was totally out of line with that of the rest of his career, and told everyone here that I thought he was a real candidate to decline. I had no idea that Smoot would be as bad as he was. No idea. I did know that he's probably not a starting caliber corner in most years.

Based on Hall's first five years, we'd have to say the same thing. Except that he's only 25, so he's got plenty of time left to improve. If he did improve though, we'd be more likely to see it in slow small incriments (at least statistically), than in one big jump, especially over only seven games.

The seven games here for Hall represent a statistical fluke. If DeSean Jackson catches both deep balls over his shoulder, the Redskins win only one game in Hall's tenure here, people see our defense as some crappy, declining unit, and Hall's numbers here are right in line with his career averages. That's obviously why I don't trust his small sample success.

I think that if you pair Rogers with Hall and treat Hall like a second CB, he'll do some developing here and he'll be able to play our Springs role. Rogers, in my opinion, is key to Hall's development. Hall, in pretty much everyone's opinion, has a very long road to NFL success ahead.

Why should we pay the best case scenario potential?

[GTripp0012]

The other factor here is the mantra that there's no place on the field to hide a bad corner. People playing Oakland only had half the field to use, and they found Hall for more completions than anyone else in the NFL.

If you can find him in that situation, you can find him in any situation. Rogers just seems to take a lot of the attention away when defending the opponents' number one receiver because people will throw against him as opposed to Hall.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

This whole thing about Springs and lack of heart is pretty stupid.

The guy was hurt and couldn't play, end of story. If he was able to play he would have been out there. He gutted it out plenty of times before yet that seems to escape our memories.

Remember the Bears game in 2007 when Springs' back was hurting so badly he could barely stand up straight, and he intercepted 2 passes one of which he returned like 50 yards to set up a score that sealed the game?? We had just buried ST, and Campbell was carted off the field with a dislocated knee. We had every reason to curl up and die, and Shawn was huge for us.

We can all agree that Todd Collins was our offensive MVP during that 4 game run to the playoffs. There's no question in my mind Springs was our defensive MVP during that stretch. He was awesome. No one was questioning his heart then.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Fair, but as I also said, its my opinion and its just as valid as yours. i feel i have far more evidence to show he has lost his heart for the game than you have to show he hasnt.

I think Crazy Canuck lacks Warpath heart, judging by how infrequently he posts here. Sounds pretty dumb doesn't it. But hey if you've got the evidence, then more power to you.

He'd love to play on the same team as his bff Terrell Owens. the fact that Springs is so close with Owens is all we really need to know about his character.

Because he's friends with TO he's a bad person?