Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

We took a big step forward in electing an African American President, but it looks like we still have a long way to go in regard to sexuality and the ignorant thinking often involved with it. Sigh.

Apparently dissension from the majority on this board is the sole form of evidence necessary to be called ignorant.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Apparently dissension from the majority on this board is the sole form of evidence necessary to be called ignorant.

No, not really. Ignorance is what it is. And it's pretty obvious here.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Wow, where the hell did I say that? You see, this is somewhat amusing to me. It's always the far left leaning individuals among us that are the first to apply labels to those with opposing view points, yet the more conservative are branded the bigots. I have not once advocated any kind of "punishment" for anyone of any persuasion. Not only have I not said it, I don't feel it.

To answer your second question, my feelings are not based on any form of religion, as I personally am not a believer. To me, it is a violation of natural law.

It's really quite simple: If you think gay marriage should be illegal, i.e. against the law -- than anyone who engages in that activity would be in violation of the law and could theoretically be sent to jail.

Now, on to your violation of natural law -- if a behavior, or inherent attraction is found throughout nature, in the animal kingdom, (and yes, we humans are animals) then how could it possibly be a violation of natural law?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

It's really quite simple: If you think gay marriage should be illegal, i.e. against the law -- than anyone who engages in that activity would be in violation of the law and could theoretically sent to jail.

Now, on to your violation of natural law -- if a behavior, or inherent attraction is found throughout nature, in the animal kingdom, (and yes, we humans are animals) then how could it possibly be a violation of natural law?

Lock up the monkeys!

LiveScience.com | LiveScience.com - Gay Animals: Alternate Lifestyles in the Wild

List of animals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

No, not really. Ignorance is what it is. And it's pretty obvious here.

Well, we disagree. I can do so respectfully, you've proven repeatedly during the past several months that you cannot. Must be nice to win every argument by proclaiming ignorance from on high.

Apparently the concept of right and wrong is alien to most of those responding to my post. No one seems to believe that anything short of violence or robbery is "wrong." To think that morality plays no part in the overall quality of a civilization is foolish and self-centered. To me, homosexuality is immoral and wrong on a fundamental nature, therefore I can't support any view point that promotes/legitimizes that lifestyle as a viable option. To do so would be to contribute to the continued degradation of our society. Like it or not, that's a legitimate viewpoint. You don't have to agree, but to insult me for stating my opinion in this thread seems a little hypocritical.

[MTK]

You're certainly free to have an opinion, I simply do not agree with it and I find it closed minded, and insulting on a certain level as well.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

It's really quite simple: If you think gay marriage should be illegal, i.e. against the law -- than anyone who engages in that activity would be in violation of the law and could theoretically be sent to jail.

Now, on to your violation of natural law -- if a behavior, or inherent attraction is found throughout nature, in the animal kingdom, (and yes, we humans are animals) then how could it possibly be a violation of natural law?

I do not believe the union of a man/man or woman/woman should be held in the same esteem as that of a traditional man/woman relationship. That's where my defense of Prop 8 comes in. No one is talking about locking anyone up here, except you.

I don't know what behaviors or "inherent attractions" take place in your bedroom/local zoo, nor do I want to, but to deny that the natural purpose of having two distinct sexes and the attraction that they possess is for anything other than procreation, well I have to disagree. Plenty of good things get perverted, sexuality is not immune.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Apparently the concept of right and wrong is alien to most of those responding to my post. No one seems to believe that anything short of violence or robbery is "wrong." To think that morality plays no part in the overall quality of a civilization is foolish and self-centered. To me, homosexuality is immoral and wrong on a fundamental nature, therefore I can't support any view point that promotes/legitimizes that lifestyle as a viable option. To do so would be to contribute to the continued degradation of our society. Like it or not, that's a legitimate viewpoint.

See, I guess we have to define what we believe to be wrong. Yes, initiating violence and stealing from someone is wrong because it violates individuals rights. Any action which infringes upon a person's most basic fundamental rights -- their life, their liberty or their property -- can logically be proven to be wrong based upon the fact that just as we wouldn't want something like that happening to us, we shouldn't do it to someone else. In simple terms, it's the Golden Rule.

But consensual homosexual acts do not infringe upon those rights. So there would have to be more of an example of logical reasoning behind your position to back it up.

How exactly does homosexuality contribute to the 'degradation of our society'?

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

I do not believe the union of a man/man or woman/woman should be held in the same esteem as that of a traditional man/woman relationship. That's where my defense of Prop 8 comes in. No one is talking about locking anyone up here, except you.

Look, if gay marriage is illegal based on a proposition passed by the people of California, then it is against the law, and anyone who tries to ignore the law and act in clear violation of it would be sent to jail. Otherwise, there's no point in passing laws.

I don't know what behaviors or "inherent attractions" take place in your bedroom/local zoo, nor do I want to, but to deny that the natural purpose of having two distinct sexes and the attraction that they possess is for anything other than procreation, well I have to disagree. Plenty of good things get perverted, sexuality is not immune.

So in your mind, sexual acts serve no other purpose than procreation?

Think of how many times you've had sex, and then count how many children you have. Isn't there some other reason human beings engage in sexual activity?

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

See, I guess we have to define what we believe to be wrong. Yes, initiating violence and stealing from someone is wrong because it violates an individuals rights. Any action which infringes upon a person's most basic fundamental rights -- their life, their liberty or their property -- can logically be proven to be wrong based upon the fact that just as we wouldn't want something like that happening to us, we shouldn't do it to someone else. In simple terms, it's the Golden Rule.

But consensual homosexual acts do not infringe upon those rights. So there would have to be more of an example of logical reasoning behind your position to back it up.

How exactly does homosexuality contribute to the 'degradation of our society'?

Last comment on this and I'm done. I'm clearly swimming upstream in this discussion/feeding frenzy. Look at it like a logic problem: I believe homosexuality to be immoral. A society without morals is degraded. Therefore a society that sees what I believe to be immoral behavior as proper has been degraded in my view.

So, say the inevitable happens and the far left get what they want. "My Two Dads" is no longer a shitty tv show from the 80's and is now a common demographic. What's next? Where do you draw the line? Is everything great so long as no one tells anyone else what to do? Do we legalize all drugs, because it will reduce the crime inherent in the trade? Hell, there's data to support the argument. And prostitution? Why keep wasting tax payer dollars prosecuting such a victimless crime? We could regulate it, that would get the abusive pimps away from these maltreated women. We could even institute a "sex tax," and use the money to pay for the national debt. There's a ton of great arguments to support immoral choices. So lets support them all equally. And then we can have the USA our forefathers dreamed of, where the citizens are a mass of homosexuals, drug addicts and prostitutes. Just makes you want to raise some kids, right????

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Look, if gay marriage is illegal based on a proposition passed by the people of California, then it is against the law, and anyone who tries to ignore the law and act in clear violation of it would be sent to jail. Otherwise, there's no point in passing laws.

I'm not a lawyer by any stretch of the imagination, but my understanding is that Proposition 8's purpose was to define marriage in an unambiguous way so as to prevent the liberal interpretation of the law. No one made anything "illegal." It's entirely possible that my understanding is less than perfect. SSG could no doubt explain it in clear terms.

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

So in your mind, sexual acts serve no other purpose than procreation?

Think of how many times you've had sex, and then count how many children you have. Isn't there some other reason human beings engage in sexual activity?

You are twisting my words, I guess for the purpose of conversation I'll believe it is an accident. I said the reason for there being two distinct sexes and their associated attraction to one another is procreation. There is no biological necessity associated with homosexuality that I know of, other than population reduction. (Maybe this could be the next green initiative, "Save the planet, Get Gay!)

[MTK]

The good old slippery slope argument. How predictable. Why not just toss in people marrying animals for good measure?

Don't kid yourself, we already have a country full of homosexuals, drug addicts and prostitutes.

[DynamiteRave]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Last comment on this and I'm done. I'm clearly swimming upstream in this discussion/feeding frenzy. Look at it like a logic problem: I believe homosexuality to be immoral. A society without morals is degraded. Therefore a society that sees what I believe to be immoral behavior as proper has been degraded in my view.

So, say the inevitable happens and the far left get what they want. "My Two Dads" is no longer a shitty tv show from the 80's and is now a common demographic. What's next? Where do you draw the line? Is everything great so long as no one tells anyone else what to do? Do we legalize all drugs, because it will reduce the crime inherent in the trade? Hell, there's data to support the argument. And prostitution? Why keep wasting tax payer dollars prosecuting such a victimless crime? We could regulate it, that would get the abusive pimps away from these maltreated women. We could even institute a "sex tax," and use the money to pay for the national debt. There's a ton of great arguments to support immoral choices. So lets support them all equally. And then we can have the USA our forefathers dreamed of, where the citizens are a mass of homosexuals, drug addicts and prostitutes. Just makes you want to raise some kids, right????

Except drugs and prostitution are illlegal. And can potentially hurt other people involved. Being gay hurts no one, including children. If you don't believe it, try reading some studies.

Our forefathers probably never expected black people to be riding in the same bus as white people. Or that I can drink or eat behind my white friends. I mean hell it was only 43 years ago black people could vote without being disenfranchised. I mean thank God for Abe Lincoln or I guess I'd be on a plantation somewhere responding, "Yes, Massa"

I mean it's incredibly disheartening to see people make these sort of negative sweeping generalizations. Painfully obviously made by someone who has never been impacted, close to anyone or probably met who's gay or a gay couple raising children.

Thankfully the proportion of people with this sort of thinking is at least even (instead of larger) than the people who are more open minded. I can only hope the proportion continues to shrink.

As for the religious right? Well they have their beliefs, and I can understand and at least respect it because they at least can throw some Bible lines at me. But... Anyway.. I digress...

[DynamiteRave]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Look, if gay marriage is illegal based on a proposition passed by the people of California, then it is against the law, and anyone who tries to ignore the law and act in clear violation of it would be sent to jail. Otherwise, there's no point in passing laws.




So in your mind, sexual acts serve no other purpose than procreation?

Think of how many times you've had sex, and then count how many children you have. Isn't there some other reason human beings engage in sexual activity?

Beemn, I can't figure out where you stand on this. You seem to be against it, but seem to enjoy picking at other people's views? I dunno.

Was just curious.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

The good old slippery slope argument. How predictable. Why not just toss in people marrying animals for good measure?

Don't kid yourself, we already have a country full of homosexuals, drug addicts and prostitutes.

Why do I keep letting myself get dragged into this???

UGH.

You're right Matty. I guess we should all embrace that wonderful reality and remove all impediments to indecency. There is such a thing as a slippery slope, while I agree that the analogy gets abused, there is truth in its origination.

You guys win, I'm clearly a neo-nazi, fundamentalist, hatred-spouting, ignorant, bigoted jackass with no opinion worth expressing. First thing tomorrow morning, I promise to put a rainbow flag on my truck and join GLAAD. Later, I'll attempt to find a pride parade to march in. If you see me, wave, I'll be dressed like this:




Later.