Ongoing CBA discussions

[MTK]

I just have a problem with the owners saying yeah, we're gonna need to take a billion back from you. Why? Just trust us.

That shit doesn't fly. I've got no problem with them saying they need that $$ back, just prove it. Guaranteed that more than few owners are hiding some shady shit on their books. And then you have owners in Buffalo and Cincy that won't sell naming rights to their stadiums and are passing up on a big revenue stream.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

I just have a problem with the owners saying yeah, we're gonna need to take a billion back from you. Why? Just trust us.

That shit doesn't fly. I've got no problem with them saying they need that $$ back, just prove it. Guaranteed that more than few owners are hiding some shady shit on their books. And then you have owners in Buffalo and Cincy that won't sell naming rights to their stadiums and are passing up on a big revenue stream.

$1B was the initial bargaining point. They came way down from that. The owners have provided a lot more financial data than "Just trust us".

The NFLPA knew the owners weren't going to give them the financial data they've requested. The owners would be insane to do that. The owners have never provided that level of financial data before. D. Smith wanted to get this into the courts all along. It's where he's comfortable and where the NFLPA thinks they have the best chance for success. That's probably why the NFLPA elected Smith in the first place. They know they can't survive a lockout once game-checks get missed, the players will crack at that point.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

$1B was the initial bargaining point. They came way down from that. The owners have provided a lot more financial data than "Just trust us".

The 1 bil referred to as the starting point . .is that the orig 1 bil the owners have gotten to take from the top under the expiring CBA or are you referring to the second 1 bil the owner want to take off the top before they start to negotiate how to split the remaining profits (7 bil)?

This is textbook, ask for an extra 1 bil that you dont really believe you will get at the start, then make concessions only to that extra 1 bil and claim the other side walked away from a great deal. "Hey we came down from 1 bil to 240 mil but that still wasnt enough to satisfy the players." In reality, the players would be giving up 240 mil, not gaining 760 mil b/c the NFL has no right to that extra 1 bil just cuz they asked for it, just like the NFLPA has no right to all 9 bil just b/c they may ask for it.

The NFL's impression of the strating point was not the same as the NFLPAs i suspect.

I thought the initial starting point should be based off the orig agreement, then each party makes concessions/modifications based off that.

What stops the NFLPA from demanding that the intial starting point is they want 57.5% of 9 bil? (the NFLPA probably started at 50/50 of the whole 9 bil imo).

I just find the NFL's stance that the initial starting point of how to split 7 bil (and not 8 or 9 bil) was in bad faith. This isnt some car accident or accounting being fired. There are alot of smart people in the room and they can see tactics for what they are. Starting unreasonably and artifically high, then making concessions only to that unreasonableness is an obvious and petty negotiating tactic.

If I was the NFLPA I wouldnt have responded either, it was just such an unreasonable demand it doesnt deserve a response b/c once you start responding/rebutting you find yourself negotiating ... and negotiating from their orig unreas starting point the other side tried to force upon you.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

I just have a problem with the owners saying yeah, we're gonna need to take a billion back from you. Why? Just trust us.

That shit doesn't fly. I've got no problem with them saying they need that $$ back, just prove it. Guaranteed that more than few owners are hiding some shady shit on their books. And then you have owners in Buffalo and Cincy that won't sell naming rights to their stadiums and are passing up on a big revenue stream.

First of all the owners arent asking for any money back. They are asking to pay the players less in the future. And Who cares whether the owners "need" the more money in a future deal or not? It's a negotiation and both sides have the right to ask for more of the pie. Finally, according to the league, they offered the union even more than what they asked for in terms of financials and the union didn't even look at it...

In my opinion all the evidence points toward the union negotiating in bad faith.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

First of all the owners arent asking for any money back. They are asking to pay the players less in the future. And Who cares whether the owners "need" the more money in a future deal or not? It's a negotiation and both sides have the right to ask for more of the pie. Finally, according to the league, they offered the union even more than what they asked for in terms of financials and the union didn't even look at it...

In my opinion all the evidence points toward the union negotiating in bad faith.

Semantics. Whatever you want to call it, they should still prove their revenues have decreased if that's the reason they are using to support their need for that money. Bad faith is saying trust us, we need the money but we're not going to show you why.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Semantics. Whatever you want to call it, they should still prove their revenues have decreased if that's the reason they are using to support their need for that money. Bad faith is saying trust us, we need the money but we're not going to show you why.

Revenues don't have to decrease, it's profitability.

NFL.com news: Packers cite player costs in $10.3M drop in operating profit

From the link:
"Packers officials said Wednesday that the team posted an operating profit of $9.8 million in the fiscal year that ended March 31, down from $20.1 million the previous year. The team has been in a slide since posting an operating profit of $34 million four years ago."

"The team said player costs have increased 11.8 percent annually over the past four seasons, while revenue went up just 5.5 percent annually during the same timeframe. "It's not just this year," Murphy said. "We've seen these trends for a number of years now that really point out some of the issues that we have with the current agreement."

The Packers I'm sure are fairly typical in the NFL. If you look at it in terms of operating profit, the Packers are down over 50% in operating profit year over year and down approximately 74% from 2006. The 2006 CBA was a bad deal for owners that they are working to correct. The NFLPA says they're not taking ANY salary reduction without seeing the full books (again they know the owners will never do this). Doesn't seem like a "partner" negotiating in "good faith".

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Semantics. Whatever you want to call it, they should still prove their revenues have decreased if that's the reason they are using to support their need for that money. Bad faith is saying trust us, we need the money but we're not going to show you why.

It's funny why the media never mentions NET INCOME, which actually represents what a company has after deducting expenses, etc. The amount of revenues taken do not take into account any expenses.

Gross profit = Net sales – Cost of goods sold.
Net income = Gross profit – Total operating expenses – taxes – interest.

Net Income (NI) Definition

[Daseal]

The owners feel as if the CBA they agreed to was not a good deal for them, so they used their out in the contract to get what they consider a more fair deal. Regardless of if you agree with the owners or the players, the owners aren't taking money from anyone. They sucked it up until they were able to change the CBA and took their opening. I don't see any issues with that.

I agree with an above poster who said the players really had no intention of coming to an agreement. They have one team with open books, the rest aren't. Deal with it. At this point, I hope the owners play hardball and take even more than they offered at the table. Would be a good lesson for next time bargaining happens.

[over the mountain]

A coal miner or auto factory worker is easy to replace; nfl caliber football players .. not so much.

To clear up my confusion re. the great offer the NFL says the NFLPA walked away from . .that great offer was about concessions the NFL had made to the extra 1 bil they originally demanded in their initial offer?

I dont blame the NFL for trying to start negotiations at their artifically unreasonably high initial offer (i.e. we want 2 bil off the top before we agree on how the other 7 bil gets split), but to only make concessions as to that extra arbitrary 1 bil you demand does not make a great or fair offer and to present that to the NFL fans as the NFL's good faith effort is insulting to me from what lil I know.

No wonder negotiations went nowhere. Did the NFL really believe the NFLPA would count their blessings that the NFL would consider reducing their extra 1 bil demand? If that was the starting point, its no wonder they never got anywhere.

I still think this thing gets resolved in the next 4 months. Each sides dream scenario is out the window now, off the table and hopefully they can start to make honest concessions and not cling to pie dreams.

everything is of my opinion.

[MTK]

Good article before all this mess

The NFL's Win-Win Labor Agreement: Why Collective Bargaining Works Well

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Good article before all this mess

The NFL's Win-Win Labor Agreement: Why Collective Bargaining Works Well

The owners argue that the current collective bargaining agreement signed in 2006 did not serve them well—despite the rising value of their franchises—and that the cost of building new stadiums and the upkeep of league-owned assets are eating into their bottom line. These specific claims are hard to evaluate because only the publicly owned Green Bay Packers release any detailed financial information—details that show the team is quite profitable, though somewhat less so during the Great Recession. The NFL hasn’t released data on any other teams, including those likely to be much more profitable, such as the Dallas Cowboys and Washington Redskins.

I really don't get how any rational person can side with the owners. If they are going to tell the players we're going to give you 50% of the revenue one is left to wonder 50% of what? If they want to get away from that system of sharing that's fine but don't tell the players we won't show you all the financial details in light of the current structure in place.

[53Fan]

Business owners have never had to tell me how much money they make or why. I sure as hell don't tell my employees how much I make. I pay them a competitive wage and if they can do better somewhere else God bless them. Some of these players have degrees in fields that they could turn into very lucrative careers. Why do they choose the NFL? The love of the game can only carry you so far. Loads of money, fame, sex, whatever.....like I said before, not a bad gig.

[skinsfaninok]

Ryan Grant takes issue with Adrian Peterson’s slavery comment | ProFootballTalk

[SmootSmack]

This was a good read

Issues of trust and transparency led to the collapse of - 03.21.11 - SI Vault

[SmootSmack]

Seems to me there was lot more in that article than just that blurb