Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Can you deliver that in a Haiku?

He has earned billions
with overnight success and
he's the catalyst

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by biffle

And RG3 is a full 14 years younger. The decision should really be made on him alone. If the team believes he is going to be a great QB, then they should do what it takes to get him. Peyton Manning shouldn't even enter into that decision. He should be considered only if the decision on Griffin is made in the negative.

And to this point, this line of thinking could not possibly be more shortsighted. You cannot make a QB decision like this in a vacuum. The fact of the matter is that you're not just talking about Griffin vs Manning, as someone else pointed out way earlier in this thread, you're talking about:

Manning + retaining 6 overall + retaining whatever other picks it would take to trade up for Griffin + the ability to spend 3 years finding a QB of the future

vs

Griffin

Again, I'm leaving cap room out of the equation because we're nowhere near the limit. It's not even a constraint for the Redskins.

If you ignore the downstream impact of making each move then you're not really managing the team, it's more of a fantasy football approach.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Funny cause I'm beginning to think the Colts possibly take RGIII instead based off of maybe what the new OC is going to want to do and what his scheme calls for. RGIII is definitely more mobile then Luck.

Well it's going to be interesting to see how Irsay treats Pagano, Grigson, and Arians (particularly the first two) but he's been pretty candid about wanting to "take back his team" so I don't know how much their opinions will matter at the end of the day

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

He has earned billions
with overnight success and
he's the catalyst

lol nice.


Can anyone imagine the Colts taking RG3 over Luck? Heads explode and the Rams probably get that Hershal Walker-like deal.

[biffle]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Nothing wrong with taking risks, as long as they're calculated. The odds just don't stack up in Griffin's favor.

Fine line between bravery and stupidity.

I really can't think of a top QB who came into the draft with anything close to Griffin's character, work ethic and production who didn't work out. But again, people apparently want to cling to this notion that all QBs in the draft come out as some kind of dice roll, so I guess these are the "odds" we are supposed to make all our decisions by.

Originally Posted by Schneed10

And to this point, this line of thinking could not possibly be more shortsighted. You cannot make a QB decision like this in a vacuum.

Frankly, yes you can. There is no single facet that comes anywhere close to predicting a team's success than the quality of their QB. In most divisions, you can rank the QBs and then go to the standings and find that you just ranked where they finished the season. If you can find a franchise QB for the next decade plus, you do it. To bypass it to draft a RT and MLB (to use the example of earlier) while farting around with the twilight of Peyton Manning's career would be the epitome of shortsightedness.

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Again, I'm leaving cap room out of the equation because we're nowhere near the limit. It's not even a constraint for the Redskins.

And again, that is just hogwash. There are always ways to spend your cap dollars. Just because that disputes your argument doesn't mean you can wish it away.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well it's going to be interesting to see how Irsay treats Pagano, Grigson, and Arians (particularly the first two) but he's been pretty candid about wanting to "take back his team" so I don't know how much their opinions will matter at the end of the day

So you trying to say he's going to be another version of Jerry Jones/Dan Snyder?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

So you trying to say he's going to be another version of Jerry Jones/Dan Snyder?

More like Paul Allen with the Trailblazers

[SBXVII]

Maybe this was posted if so I'm sorry but it's a nice read about PM.

Some clarity on Peyton Manning's injury - Hogs Haven

I didn't remember Montana having the same surgery. I do remember though something about worrying how fragile he might be taking a hit.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by biffle

I really can't think of a top QB who came into the draft with anything close to Griffin's character, work ethic and production who didn't work out. But again, people apparently want to cling to this notion that all QBs in the draft come out as some kind of dice roll, so I guess these are the "odds" we are supposed to make all our decisions by.




Frankly, yes you can. There is no single facet that comes anywhere close to predicting a team's success than the quality of their QB. In most divisions, you can rank the QBs and then go to the standings and find that you just ranked where they finished the season. If you can find a franchise QB for the next decade plus, you do it. To bypass it to draft a RT and MLB (to use the example of earlier) while farting around with the twilight of Peyton Manning's career would be the epitome of shortsightedness.



And again, that is just hogwash. There are always ways to spend your cap dollars. Just because that disputes your argument doesn't mean you can wish it away.

Yeah I think your first problem is that you seem to think Robert Griffin is God's gift. I don't see that. I see that in Luck, but not Griffin. You also seem to think Peyton is in some sort of decline. That's the biggest source of disagreement between the two of us.

As for cap space, no, not even close. There are not THAT many good ways to spend $35 - $45 friggin million in cap space. Nobody makes that many free agent acquisitions and lives to tell the tale. See: Cerrato, Vinny.

And yes, in the end Griffin is a dice roll. People have thought extremely highly of a lot of quarterbacks. Mark Sanchez and Matt Ryan were both extremely productive, highly regarded, and high character guys. One can't muster anything better than mediocre production, and the other disappears in road games and come playoff time. You just don't know.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

And to this point, this line of thinking could not possibly be more shortsighted. You cannot make a QB decision like this in a vacuum. The fact of the matter is that you're not just talking about Griffin vs Manning, as someone else pointed out way earlier in this thread, you're talking about:

Manning + retaining 6 overall + retaining whatever other picks it would take to trade up for Griffin + the ability to spend 3 years finding a QB of the future

vs

Griffin

Again, I'm leaving cap room out of the equation because we're nowhere near the limit. It's not even a constraint for the Redskins.

If you ignore the downstream impact of making each move then you're not really managing the team, it's more of a fantasy football approach.

This is kind of how I'm thinking. Sure, I wish somehow we magically have RGIII fall to us, but if it doesn't happen, we can keep years of draft picks and still be competitive. I think too many people want to just tank for years in the interest of getting younger. I'd LOVE to have RGIII or Luck, but there have been some "sure things" in the past that really destroyed high picks (and future picks).

I've said in another thread that on the surface we seem like a patient fan base but we surely would run Shanahan out of town if we drafted some young QB and went 6-10 (while showing promise).

Then the cycle begins all over again with a new coach, who might want defense to go back to the 4-3, might want a QB better for "their" system and around and around we go.

I'd love to get RGIII or Luck, but I'm totally fine with Manning as an option for a couple of years if he's healthy.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Depending on what it takes to move up for Luck, I'd be willing to trade up for him. If Polian was still the GM for the Colts it'd probably would have been easier to make that deal. Now? I know it's still being discussed but the reality is that a trade to #1 is not likely.

My opinion is that the gap between Luck and the 2nd best QB in this draft (which most would say is RG3) is significantly great than that of say RG3 and Ryan Tannehill. Again, that's just my opinion. But that's one big reason why I wouldn't trade up for RG3.

I think that you and I are the only ones here who see things that way.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Lotus

I think that you and I are the only ones here who see things that way.

Count me in that group. I don' know much about Tannehill, but I do see a big gap between Luck and Griffin.

[biffle]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah I think your first problem is that you seem to think Robert Griffin is God's gift. I don't see that. I see that in Luck, but not Griffin.

I don't think anyone is "God's gift" and I'm not sure what the point of a lame comment like that is. If you don't like him as a prospect, that's fine. I do, as do plenty of other people. We can disagree, but rest assured, I don't need you to tell me what "my problem" is.

Originally Posted by Schneed10

You also seem to think Peyton is in some sort of decline. That's the biggest source of disagreement between the two of us.

Manning's passer ratings by age:
28- 121.1
29- 104.1
30- 101
31- 98
32- 95
33- 99.9
34- 91.9

A pretty clear downward trajectory there, and that number for his last year would have been good for only 7th best in the NFC this season.

People decline physically as they get older. It's not exactly controversial to say that. And taking a year off and having multiple surgeries aren't exactly elixirs for that.

Originally Posted by Schneed10

As for cap space, no, not even close. There are not THAT many good ways to spend $35 - $45 friggin million in cap space. Nobody makes that many free agent acquisitions and lives to tell the tale. See: Cerrato, Vinny.

Ah, so once there was a terrible GM who didn't know what he was doing, so all Free Agent spending is bad. Brilliant. Does that also apply to Gibbs' Washington-Springs-Griffin-Daniels-Moss spending spree that was the basis for two playoff runs? How about the Patriots first Super Bowl win after signing about 20 FAs? There are smart ways and dumb ways to spend money, just like there are dumb ways to do most anything.

For the record, why don't you look at GTripp's breakdown of our cap space. People keep throwing these numbers around and thinking that we are going to have trouble figuring out what to do with all the cap space. Once we re-sign our own and our draft picks, that space turns into a much more pedestrian number.

Originally Posted by Schneed10

And yes, in the end Griffin is a dice roll.

Thank goodness we don't have a FO that thinks of things so simplistically.

Originally Posted by Schneed10

People have thought extremely highly of a lot of quarterbacks. Mark Sanchez and Matt Ryan were both extremely productive, highly regarded, and high character guys. One can't muster anything better than mediocre production, and the other disappears in road games and come playoff time. You just don't know.

Yeah, I'll take Ryan and his future any day, thank you.

Sanchez had only one year of starting in college, which is a huge red flag. He also had an arrest on his record, and other maturity questions.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

I agree that RGIII is a dice roll IF we trade up for him. If he falls to us at six, that's a very appropriate place for a highly regarded QB to go. Every year there's someone like that.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Funny cause I'm beginning to think the Colts possibly take RGIII instead based off of maybe what the new OC is going to want to do and what his scheme calls for. RGIII is definitely more mobile then Luck.

People say that, but is that really true? The rushing stats between the two are fairly similar. RGIII ran more than Luck who is definitely more of a pocket passer, but in one year, Luck had a far higher rushing average (with a decent sample size). The very few times I watched the two, neither were very "shifty", but Luck seemed to have more of a burst.