How the Hell is this happening!

VTSkins897 · 11-22-2004, 05:00 PM

still... just the fact that the team is so pathetic offensively shows me that there is an inherent flaw in the system. this is to be expected from someone who's been away for a while. its just spurrier-effect (a horrible system) except magnified. even spurrier drew up some decent gameplans with his unorthodox passing system. it just might be that the super conservatism doesnt fly anymore....

even with our own team we see williams takin no namers and puttin up a top 10 D... maybe we arent 1 or 2 against philly but overall easily top 5 or 10...

gibbs on the other hand has some pretty good players to work with... im sure hed rather work with samuels, portis, and coles over... marshall, clark, and evans

based on even a simple observation like that, we are seeing a flawed, flawed system...

i still feel that gibbs will work through it... but im not about to say that we all of a sudden have no talent offensively. im gonna actually face the facts

SmootSmack · 11-22-2004, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

The Eagles starting DTs yesterday were both undrafted free agents. They were spelled by another DT who was an undrafted free agent and a first round draft pick. They do not have a lot of money tied up there, but they have played decently, this year, no? Or would you argue that the Redskins' DL is better than the Eagles' DL?

Aren't Antonio Pierce, LeMar Marshall and Ryan Clark all undrafted free agents?

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 11-22-2004, 09:12 PM

I would say our DL is better than the Eagles DL, especially when you consider who the Eagles have on the DLine.

SC, you mentioned two undrafted free agents. You also might want to note that they have JEVON KEARSE, Corey Simon, Darwin Walker, and Hugh Douglas. You might also want to note that until last week, their Dline's rush defense couldn't stop squat.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 11-22-2004, 09:14 PM

Salavea, Haley, Noble, Pierce, Marshall, Clark, & Co. weren't exactly 1st rounders.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 11-22-2004, 09:22 PM

SC,

#1 I never ever ever said that Ramsey is playing like some super stud. In fact, I thought he was going to get his arse handed to him yesterday (I posted a thread about that).

#2 I did say the playcalling sucks; which might explain the disparity between this team's talent and its record.

#3 I agree that you need to draft well to build a good team.

#4 You have said we need changes at QB, WR, or 8 or so positions. Sorry, you're not going to be able to do that in 1, 2, or 3 drafts. How do you actually expect to really mix up those 8 positions without spending a boat load of money or waiting 3 years (when half our coaching staff will be in nursing homes)?

You've critiqued Daniel Snyder, which is sort of like stealing the mentally retarded kids lunch money (so easy). You've said that we need to build through the draft (which few argue with). BUT, you simultaneously want to revamp our roster. I just want to know how you would go about doing that.

sportscurmudgeon · 11-23-2004, 01:33 AM

Here's how to revamp the roster.

You start by admitting to yourself that there are far too many players here making more money than they are worth. Then you invest the money in scouts who can find college and pro talent. Scouting other pro teams to get their "castoffs" who will be productive for you is an important part of the deal.

Then you set a team budget and let the football people and the "capologists" do their thing. Here is a fundamental problem that the Redskins have - and it was theoretically going to go away with the hiring of Joe Gibbs. When there is a "disparity of opinion" between Gibbs and Cerrato, they each state their case and Danny Boy decides. Guess what. That means Danny Boy is making football related decisions and we know that does not work.

Now blowing up a football team is not pretty. See the SF 49ers this year of what it will probably look like. But if you eat the cap money of the overpaid players and don't make the same mistakes again, you have the chance to rebuild - if of course you are willing to admit to yourself that some other teams have discovered the model for success before you did and therefore you will copy them and not be the "innovator" and the "leader" and the "trendsetter".

Who are some of the potentially overpaid players? I don't know all of the contract numbers so here is a list of players that I'd study hard on film and then study their contracts closely. Many would be employed elsewhere:

WR: Gardner definitely goes and maybe Jacobs if Jacobs has a big cap number. However, I'd keep both of them until I knew the results of Coles' surgery. If he refuses to have surgery, then I have to ask if a limping Coles is worth what his cap number is. His on-field performance this year playing injured is not what a $13M signing bonus WR should produce.

TE: NO one there is worth a big cap number and I suspect none of them are making a big cap number. So keep the best players here. Probably keep Cooley and Royal - assuming neither is expensive.

OL: Samuels is good but not $11M worth of good. Renegotiate or move him on. Raymer and Freidman have to come really cheap and even so, I'd probably keep only one because they aren't that good. Dockery is probably worth another year to see how he progresses. Brown and Parker would have to play for the minimum or move on. Jansen is a definite keeper; he is a building block for the team. He is the best player on the offensive unit.

RB: Since Betts probably costs next to nothing, keep him. Keep Portis. NO other RB can cost much more than the league minimum.

DL: Keep Griffin, Evans, Saalev'a and Noble i- f Noble does not cost too much. Wynn is a casualty because he is an ordinary player and he makes too much.

LB: There is a whole lot of cap money wrapped up in this position. This is where you will probably have to cut a productive player purely for economic reasons. Barrow and Marshall would be candidates here.

CB: You are already paying Springs a lot of money. If you re-sign Smoot for the kind of money he can command, that will tie up a whole lot of money in the CB position. Is that a disproprotionate investment? Probably not. But it will mean that all the other CBs will need to be making minimun salary or damned close to it.

S Taylor is "cap friendly" for the moment but you cannot renegotiate his deal because that would set a precedent and open the floodgates for other players. Contradt extensions are something ownership does to eas cap pain; it sin't something that players can be allowed to demand and expect that the demand will be met. I'd pay Clark and/or Lott a little above the minimum but nothing outrageous.

ST: Morton is probably a luxury that you cannot afford. I'd certainly have a really outstanding doctor look at Hall's injury from the standpoint of the likelihood that it might be recurring. If it is likely to be recurring, I'd be looking for a cheaper kicker now.

QB: I'd cut Brunell and eat the cap hit. I'd name Ramsey as the starter to be sure there is no ambiguity and use next year to figure out if I want to keep him after his contract expires. If so, then he will get a big contract; if not, we'll go shopping in two years with cap room galore because the dead money will have gone away. Hasselbeck can be the #2 guy and for an emergency situation I'd go out and find a Tony Banks or Jeff Blake or someone like that who will certainly be floating around looking to sign on for a year of clipboard duty at about $500K.

To be sure, this would be potentially an ugly team for a year or so. But it puts the fiscal house back in order.

Now if you think that Danny Boy is going to sit back and take the "long view" here, you are sadly mistaken. He thinks the team is one or two players away from GLORY. They aren't, but he thinks so. So get ready for a great ride in March and April 2005...

That Guy · 11-23-2004, 01:54 AM

SC, spurrier took WORSE talent and scored a lot more points (and the D killed us), how do you argue the playcalling isn't hurting us, and its all on the talent?

williams came in and our D has gone up over 20 spots (of 32) in a single season, gibbs comes in and our O drops off and completely bottoms out, even with better talent... I just don't see how you can keep saying the coaching isn't really that important (1-2 games), when we've seen our team shift so drasticl in both directions specificly because of coaching...

That Guy · 11-23-2004, 02:01 AM

thats not a huge blowup.. cut brunell, samuels, coles, wynn, barrow, morton
we'd need to draft/sign mike williams, an Olineman and a DE or two...

sportscurmudgeon · 11-23-2004, 10:47 AM

That Guy:

I'm not sure Spurrier had that much less talent. Granted last year's defensive line was atrocious. But the LBs are pretty much the same and the DBs are minus Champ Bailey this year. The defense has upgraded the talent but the only real positive difference is the OL

On offense the OL this year is a lot worse than last year because Jansen is not there. That's no one's fault but it is a fact. Running back is a significant upgrade Quarterback talent level has not changed since Brunell has not been significantly better than Matthews/Weurffel/Hasselbeck last year and Ramsey is still here. WRs are the same except for the addition of Thrash who is a minor player.

The team added players in the off-season and they did improve the talent level a bit, but it was not a HUGE increase.

sportscurmudgeon · 11-23-2004, 10:57 AM

That Guy:

My team restructuring note suggested the players that we all know who would be targets for "removal". Others would join them.

Nonetheless, I suggested cutting the starting QB (at the beginning of the year), either the #1 WR or the #2 and #3 WR, the starting LT, the starting center or his immediate backup, the most experienced DL on the squad and the guy projected to be the starting MLB until injuries hit. Add to that Morton and Hall as possible cuts and look at what you would have. Three of the four infamous "Jetskins" might be eslewhere.

If anyone has a more extensive "blow-up plan" please post it here.

MTK · 11-23-2004, 11:19 AM

I'm not in favor of any sort of major blow up plan in 2005.

Yeah we need to trim some fat and I'm sure we'll see some higher priced guys either re-work their deals or be cut, but I don't see the need for sweeping changes.

Gmanc711 · 11-23-2004, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

thats not a huge blowup.. cut brunell, samuels, coles, wynn, barrow, morton
we'd need to draft/sign mike williams, an Olineman and a DE or two...

You want to cut Coles? I dont think he's someone we can afford to cut, surgery or not. I dont think we can draft Mike Williams, espcially with the pick were looking at; we should probolby deal the pick. I agree with the other ones, except if Samuels will restructure. I'm with Matty though, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the biggest move we can make this year is no move at all. I think Smoot, even though he will cost $$, is someone we defintley resign.

SkinsRock · 11-23-2004, 02:52 PM

There is a HUGE difference between talent and performance. The Redskins have a lot of talent, but they have not performed nearly as well as they should.
Our WR group is a perfect example of this. Talent-wise, they are probably top-ten, but from their performance this year, they are near the bottom.
Coles has nagging injuries, Gardner is Mr. Inconsistant, McCants and Thrash are solid but not great, and Jacobs is just starting to show what he's capable of, due to the injuries last year. So it is a work in progress, like the rest of the team. People say that they are not a 3-7 team, but guess what? They are, until they prove otherwise....and "blowing up" the roster in the offseason is NOT the way to do it.
This team needs STABILITY more than anything, and hiring Coach Gibbs was the first step in acheiving that.

sportscurmudgeon · 11-23-2004, 03:43 PM

GManc711:

I do not want to cut Coles. But if I am out to blow up the team - as I was asked to provide provide details on - and I am looking to see what players are producing at a level commensurate with their salary cap numbers now and into the future, then indeed Coles is a player I'd scrutinize.

Go check the stats to get exact numbers but I think this is correct. Coles has been a Redskin for 26 games; he has 7 TDs. That is not the on-field performance I expect or demand from a guy who get a $13M signing bonus and who will start to eat up cap space as his contract matures. Crazy Canuck can give you the figures for Coles in the out-years but I am confident that it is not a tiny number.

I believe that the reason for the less than spectacular performance is that he has an injured foot. Fine. Now, the question is what is the prognosis for that injury getting better. Surgery? Treatments? What? Because if I am correct that the reason for his less than fully productive performance is the injury, then I want him cured before I pay the rest of the contract. So, that becomes part of the decision process.

The Skins signed Coles with two good feet. And with two good feet, he is probably worth what he is getting paid. But on one foot...???

So, I don't want to cut him but I do want to try to figure out if the guy I hired to play WR with two good feet is the guy that will be showing up for work the next several years - - or not.

11-23-2004, 01:33 AM	#21
sportscurmudgeon Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,159	Here's how to revamp the roster. You start by admitting to yourself that there are far too many players here making more money than they are worth. Then you invest the money in scouts who can find college and pro talent. Scouting other pro teams to get their "castoffs" who will be productive for you is an important part of the deal. Then you set a team budget and let the football people and the "capologists" do their thing. Here is a fundamental problem that the Redskins have - and it was theoretically going to go away with the hiring of Joe Gibbs. When there is a "disparity of opinion" between Gibbs and Cerrato, they each state their case and Danny Boy decides. Guess what. That means Danny Boy is making football related decisions and we know that does not work. Now blowing up a football team is not pretty. See the SF 49ers this year of what it will probably look like. But if you eat the cap money of the overpaid players and don't make the same mistakes again, you have the chance to rebuild - if of course you are willing to admit to yourself that some other teams have discovered the model for success before you did and therefore you will copy them and not be the "innovator" and the "leader" and the "trendsetter". Who are some of the potentially overpaid players? I don't know all of the contract numbers so here is a list of players that I'd study hard on film and then study their contracts closely. Many would be employed elsewhere: WR: Gardner definitely goes and maybe Jacobs if Jacobs has a big cap number. However, I'd keep both of them until I knew the results of Coles' surgery. If he refuses to have surgery, then I have to ask if a limping Coles is worth what his cap number is. His on-field performance this year playing injured is not what a $13M signing bonus WR should produce. TE: NO one there is worth a big cap number and I suspect none of them are making a big cap number. So keep the best players here. Probably keep Cooley and Royal - assuming neither is expensive. OL: Samuels is good but not $11M worth of good. Renegotiate or move him on. Raymer and Freidman have to come really cheap and even so, I'd probably keep only one because they aren't that good. Dockery is probably worth another year to see how he progresses. Brown and Parker would have to play for the minimum or move on. Jansen is a definite keeper; he is a building block for the team. He is the best player on the offensive unit. RB: Since Betts probably costs next to nothing, keep him. Keep Portis. NO other RB can cost much more than the league minimum. DL: Keep Griffin, Evans, Saalev'a and Noble i- f Noble does not cost too much. Wynn is a casualty because he is an ordinary player and he makes too much. LB: There is a whole lot of cap money wrapped up in this position. This is where you will probably have to cut a productive player purely for economic reasons. Barrow and Marshall would be candidates here. CB: You are already paying Springs a lot of money. If you re-sign Smoot for the kind of money he can command, that will tie up a whole lot of money in the CB position. Is that a disproprotionate investment? Probably not. But it will mean that all the other CBs will need to be making minimun salary or damned close to it. S Taylor is "cap friendly" for the moment but you cannot renegotiate his deal because that would set a precedent and open the floodgates for other players. Contradt extensions are something ownership does to eas cap pain; it sin't something that players can be allowed to demand and expect that the demand will be met. I'd pay Clark and/or Lott a little above the minimum but nothing outrageous. ST: Morton is probably a luxury that you cannot afford. I'd certainly have a really outstanding doctor look at Hall's injury from the standpoint of the likelihood that it might be recurring. If it is likely to be recurring, I'd be looking for a cheaper kicker now. QB: I'd cut Brunell and eat the cap hit. I'd name Ramsey as the starter to be sure there is no ambiguity and use next year to figure out if I want to keep him after his contract expires. If so, then he will get a big contract; if not, we'll go shopping in two years with cap room galore because the dead money will have gone away. Hasselbeck can be the #2 guy and for an emergency situation I'd go out and find a Tony Banks or Jeff Blake or someone like that who will certainly be floating around looking to sign on for a year of clipboard duty at about $500K. To be sure, this would be potentially an ugly team for a year or so. But it puts the fiscal house back in order. Now if you think that Danny Boy is going to sit back and take the "long view" here, you are sadly mistaken. He thinks the team is one or two players away from GLORY. They aren't, but he thinks so. So get ready for a great ride in March and April 2005... __________________ The Sports Curmudgeon www.sportscurmudgeon.com But don't get me wrong, I love sports...

11-23-2004, 10:47 AM	#24
sportscurmudgeon Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,159	That Guy: I'm not sure Spurrier had that much less talent. Granted last year's defensive line was atrocious. But the LBs are pretty much the same and the DBs are minus Champ Bailey this year. The defense has upgraded the talent but the only real positive difference is the OL On offense the OL this year is a lot worse than last year because Jansen is not there. That's no one's fault but it is a fact. Running back is a significant upgrade Quarterback talent level has not changed since Brunell has not been significantly better than Matthews/Weurffel/Hasselbeck last year and Ramsey is still here. WRs are the same except for the addition of Thrash who is a minor player. The team added players in the off-season and they did improve the talent level a bit, but it was not a HUGE increase. __________________ The Sports Curmudgeon www.sportscurmudgeon.com But don't get me wrong, I love sports...

11-23-2004, 10:57 AM	#25
sportscurmudgeon Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,159	That Guy: My team restructuring note suggested the players that we all know who would be targets for "removal". Others would join them. Nonetheless, I suggested cutting the starting QB (at the beginning of the year), either the #1 WR or the #2 and #3 WR, the starting LT, the starting center or his immediate backup, the most experienced DL on the squad and the guy projected to be the starting MLB until injuries hit. Add to that Morton and Hall as possible cuts and look at what you would have. Three of the four infamous "Jetskins" might be eslewhere. If anyone has a more extensive "blow-up plan" please post it here. __________________ The Sports Curmudgeon www.sportscurmudgeon.com But don't get me wrong, I love sports...

11-23-2004, 03:43 PM	#29
sportscurmudgeon Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,159	GManc711: I do not want to cut Coles. But if I am out to blow up the team - as I was asked to provide provide details on - and I am looking to see what players are producing at a level commensurate with their salary cap numbers now and into the future, then indeed Coles is a player I'd scrutinize. Go check the stats to get exact numbers but I think this is correct. Coles has been a Redskin for 26 games; he has 7 TDs. That is not the on-field performance I expect or demand from a guy who get a $13M signing bonus and who will start to eat up cap space as his contract matures. Crazy Canuck can give you the figures for Coles in the out-years but I am confident that it is not a tiny number. I believe that the reason for the less than spectacular performance is that he has an injured foot. Fine. Now, the question is what is the prognosis for that injury getting better. Surgery? Treatments? What? Because if I am correct that the reason for his less than fully productive performance is the injury, then I want him cured before I pay the rest of the contract. So, that becomes part of the decision process. The Skins signed Coles with two good feet. And with two good feet, he is probably worth what he is getting paid. But on one foot...??? So, I don't want to cut him but I do want to try to figure out if the guy I hired to play WR with two good feet is the guy that will be showing up for work the next several years - - or not. __________________ The Sports Curmudgeon www.sportscurmudgeon.com But don't get me wrong, I love sports...

11-22-2004, 05:00 PM	#16
VTSkins897 Impact Rookie Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Richmond, VA Age: 42 Posts: 890	still... just the fact that the team is so pathetic offensively shows me that there is an inherent flaw in the system. this is to be expected from someone who's been away for a while. its just spurrier-effect (a horrible system) except magnified. even spurrier drew up some decent gameplans with his unorthodox passing system. it just might be that the super conservatism doesnt fly anymore.... even with our own team we see williams takin no namers and puttin up a top 10 D... maybe we arent 1 or 2 against philly but overall easily top 5 or 10... gibbs on the other hand has some pretty good players to work with... im sure hed rather work with samuels, portis, and coles over... marshall, clark, and evans based on even a simple observation like that, we are seeing a flawed, flawed system... i still feel that gibbs will work through it... but im not about to say that we all of a sudden have no talent offensively. im gonna actually face the facts

11-22-2004, 09:12 PM	#18
Sheriff Gonna Getcha Franchise Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 46 Posts: 8,317	I would say our DL is better than the Eagles DL, especially when you consider who the Eagles have on the DLine. SC, you mentioned two undrafted free agents. You also might want to note that they have JEVON KEARSE, Corey Simon, Darwin Walker, and Hugh Douglas. You might also want to note that until last week, their Dline's rush defense couldn't stop squat.

11-22-2004, 09:14 PM	#19
Sheriff Gonna Getcha Franchise Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 46 Posts: 8,317	Salavea, Haley, Noble, Pierce, Marshall, Clark, & Co. weren't exactly 1st rounders.

11-22-2004, 09:22 PM	#20
Sheriff Gonna Getcha Franchise Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 46 Posts: 8,317	SC, #1 I never ever ever said that Ramsey is playing like some super stud. In fact, I thought he was going to get his arse handed to him yesterday (I posted a thread about that). #2 I did say the playcalling sucks; which might explain the disparity between this team's talent and its record. #3 I agree that you need to draft well to build a good team. #4 You have said we need changes at QB, WR, or 8 or so positions. Sorry, you're not going to be able to do that in 1, 2, or 3 drafts. How do you actually expect to really mix up those 8 positions without spending a boat load of money or waiting 3 years (when half our coaching staff will be in nursing homes)? You've critiqued Daniel Snyder, which is sort of like stealing the mentally retarded kids lunch money (so easy). You've said that we need to build through the draft (which few argue with). BUT, you simultaneously want to revamp our roster. I just want to know how you would go about doing that.

11-23-2004, 01:54 AM	#22
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,620	SC, spurrier took WORSE talent and scored a lot more points (and the D killed us), how do you argue the playcalling isn't hurting us, and its all on the talent? williams came in and our D has gone up over 20 spots (of 32) in a single season, gibbs comes in and our O drops off and completely bottoms out, even with better talent... I just don't see how you can keep saying the coaching isn't really that important (1-2 games), when we've seen our team shift so drasticl in both directions specificly because of coaching...

11-23-2004, 02:01 AM	#23
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,620	thats not a huge blowup.. cut brunell, samuels, coles, wynn, barrow, morton we'd need to draft/sign mike williams, an Olineman and a DE or two...

11-23-2004, 11:19 AM	#26
MTK \m/ Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 52 Posts: 99,846	I'm not in favor of any sort of major blow up plan in 2005. Yeah we need to trim some fat and I'm sure we'll see some higher priced guys either re-work their deals or be cut, but I don't see the need for sweeping changes.

11-23-2004, 02:52 PM	#28
SkinsRock Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Crofton, MD Age: 55 Posts: 907	There is a HUGE difference between talent and performance. The Redskins have a lot of talent, but they have not performed nearly as well as they should. Our WR group is a perfect example of this. Talent-wise, they are probably top-ten, but from their performance this year, they are near the bottom. Coles has nagging injuries, Gardner is Mr. Inconsistant, McCants and Thrash are solid but not great, and Jacobs is just starting to show what he's capable of, due to the injuries last year. So it is a work in progress, like the rest of the team. People say that they are not a 3-7 team, but guess what? They are, until they prove otherwise....and "blowing up" the roster in the offseason is NOT the way to do it. This team needs STABILITY more than anything, and hiring Coach Gibbs was the first step in acheiving that.

How the Hell is this happening!

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