A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

[REDSKINS4ever]

The same offense that John Elway and Matt Schuab ran should be the one that RG3 runs. Why change anything? If Grossman was able to move the ball effectively down field then so can Griffin.

[redskinjim]

we can win with this guy right now.just taylor the offense around him

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by 30gut

o the core offense/formations will remain unchanged but the playcalling balance will return and the offense will look more like Houston and the traditional Mike S. Denver WCO with a heavy focus on stretch running and boot-action passing?

This is what I'd like to see for the most part. Don't change the system, but don't try to force square pegs into round holes either.

Clearly we're going to have a QB that can do a lot more with his legs than a McNabb, Grossman, or Beck. I don't want to do too much designed running with RGIII because I want him healthy, but certainly bootleg stuff could be very effective. We're going to have a stronger receiving corps with additions like Garcon. Plus we'll have a healthy Cooley and hopefully a more focused, not stoned Fred Davis.

Seems to me that this team will have significantly more potential talent-wise on offense. Let's call plays around that.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by GMScud

This is what I'd like to see for the most part. Don't change the system, but don't try to force square pegs into round holes either.

Clearly we're going to have a QB that can do a lot more with his legs than a McNabb, Grossman, or Beck. I don't want to do too much designed running with RGIII because I want him healthy, but certainly bootleg stuff could be very effective...

I kinda agree with you because I'm a traditional smash mouth football type of guy.
I loved the traditional run balance of (sans Kyle) Houston and Mike. S Denver WCO.
Griffin would be deadly running or throwing off boot-action.
Mike Shanahan's traditional Denver WCO would be a breeze for QB like Griffin to learn and execute.

But, whether its a bootleg run or zone read play both are plays with a designed QB run option that can put the QB at risk.

Some of the cutting edge NFL offenses feature the same formations and concepts Griffin mastered at Baylor.
As the rest of the league adds more and more of these spread elements, not neccessarily designed QB runs but spread elements, wouldn't the offense benefit from making the same shift?
Especially with a QB like Griffin that's proven his proficiency in that system?

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by 30gut

I kinda agree with you because I'm a traditional smash mouth football type of guy.
I loved the traditional run balance of (sans Kyle) Houston and Mike. S Denver WCO.
Griffin would be deadly running or throwing off boot-action.
Mike Shanahan's traditional Denver WCO would be a breeze for QB like Griffin to learn and execute.

But, whether its a bootleg run or zone read play both are plays with a designed QB run option that can put the QB at risk.

Some of the cutting edge NFL offenses feature the same formations and concepts Griffin mastered at Baylor.
As the rest of the league adds more and more of these spread elements, not neccessarily designed QB runs but spread elements, wouldn't the offense benefit from making the same shift?
Especially with a QB like Griffin that's proven his proficiency in that system?

Well, adding some spread concepts for Griffin would certainly be smart. I never said I didn't want him running the ball at all, I just don't want to see it all the time for health reasons. My worry is they'll run a ton of boots, and until RGIII gets really comfortable with NFL defenses, he'll be too quick to exercise that run option, increases his chances of getting hurt on the run .

[30gut]

Originally Posted by GMScud

I never said I didn't want him running the ball at all, I just don't want to see it all the time for health reasons. My worry is they'll run a ton of boots, and until RGIII gets really comfortable with NFL defenses, he'll be too quick to exercise that run option, increases his chances of getting hurt on the run.

Right on.
I just wanted to point out that I wasn't suggesting that Griffin should run all the time either or that adding spread concepts doesn't equate to designed QB runs.

I agree that whichever style offense they run shouldn't have too many of designed runs either.
I also think Griffin needs to be exercise much better judgement in knowing when to get down and avoid a hit versus when to try and gain that extra yardage and exposing his body.
Imo fearlessness is one of the traits that Griffin shares with Locker.
These guys made some breathtaking runs and also exposed their bodies and took many unneccessary hits.

If there is one area where I wouldn't mind seeing more designed plays with QB runs as an option is the read zone.
That is one area where I think the risk is worth the reward.

Back to your OP, truth be told any option that involves a return of balanced playcalling is the least likely scenario in my mind.
Regardless of whether there are more spread concepts or the offense concepts/formations remains unchanged from last year I doubt Kyle will ever have the run balance that was the staple of the DWCO.

I'm not saying that as a value judgement either; just an observation of the trend in Kyle's pass/run ratio both here and in Houston.
Although I prefer balanced playcalling there are plenty of great offenses in the league that lack balanced playcalling but are still highly productive.

[RGIII]

I agree with all of you. The fact that opposing defenses will have to respect Griffin's athleticism will consequently define this offense.

[30gut]

Here are 2 NFL spread offense at work:

New England Patriots @ Buffalo Bills Highlights 9-25-11 - YouTube

[Dirtbag59]

I say same but better as long as the Shanahan's are in town. If the Shanahans get fired then at that point it may be best to bring in someone that will design an entire offense around RG3's skill set with RG3, similar to how Drew Brees and Sean Payton essentially designed the Saints offense together.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag59

I say same but better as long as the Shanahan's are in town.

You mean for what you want to see or what you expect to see?

If the Shanahans get fired then at that point it may be best to bring in someone that will design an entire offense around RG3's skill set with RG3, similar to how Drew Brees and Sean Payton essentially designed the Saints offense together.

It maybe a sublime a distinction but I think the Brees/Payton relationship is different from what I'm suggesting with a rookie QB.
Brees chose what he liked from within Payton's playbook.
I'm thinking more along the lines of adding to the playbook based on Griffin's college offense ala Rob Chudzinski and Cam Newton.

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by 30gut

You mean for what you want to see or what you expect to see?
It maybe a sublime a distinction but I think the Brees/Payton relationship is different from what I'm suggesting with a rookie QB.
Brees chose what he liked from within Payton's playbook.
I'm thinking more along the lines of adding to the playbook based on Griffin's college offense ala Rob Chudzinski and Cam Newton.

I expect and want to see the same offense with RG3 at least as a rookie.

However I would be more then fine with some 3 or 4 wide shotgun sets with a couple run-option-pass thrown in there. I still think though that if the Shanahan experiment fails in 2 or 3 years then the next coach should come in and build a new offense from the ground up with major input from RG3 or whatever they did with Chudzinski and Newton in Carolina.

Either way I'm very comfortable with the idea of RG3 going under center and giving the other team a steady dose of bootlegs, zone runs, and play action fakes. In fact as I've been saying all along those bootlegs with RG3 are going to help open some great cutback lanes for our backs on zone runs.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag59

I expect and want to see the same offense with RG3 at least as a rookie.

However I would be more then fine with some 3 or 4 wide shotgun sets with a couple run-option-pass thrown in there. I still think though that if the Shanahan experiment fails in 2 or 3 years then the next coach should come in and build a new offense from the ground up with major input from RG3 or whatever they did with Chudzinski and Newton in Carolina.

Either way I'm very comfortable with the idea of RG3 going under center and giving the other team a steady dose of bootlegs, zone runs, and play action fakes. In fact as I've been saying all along those bootlegs with RG3 are going to help open some great cutback lanes for our backs on zone runs.

I'm torn.
I love Mike's Denver WCO.
When I think of the Mike's DWCO (bootleg/bootswap) I wonder if Kyle can ever fully commit to the run focused football that style of offense requires.


Kyle playcalling pallet has always leaned towards the pass.
And I'm not saying the above as good/bad value judgement but as an observation.
As long as Kyle is the OC I think we'll always pass the ball more.
And if we're going to pass more then why not run more spread?
Kyle has already shown some spread looks, why not take the offense further in that direction like the Bills, Bengals, Patriots and Packers?
And if Kyle is gonna add spread components why not bring them in from Baylor's offense?
Particularly the 5 wide empty sets.

Question:
Do you think Cam would have been as productive and dynamic in a traditional pro-style offense?

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by 30gut

I'm torn.
I love Mike's Denver WCO.
When I think of the Mike's DWCO (bootleg/bootswap) I wonder if Kyle can ever fully commit to the run focused football that style of offense requires.


Kyle playcalling pallet has always leaned towards the pass.
And I'm not saying the above as good/bad value judgement but as an observation.
As long as Kyle is the OC I think we'll always pass the ball more.
And if we're going to pass more then why not run more spread?
Kyle has already shown some spread looks, why not take the offense further in that direction like the Bills, Bengals, Patriots and Packers?
And if Kyle is gonna add spread components why not bring them in from Baylor's offense?
Particularly the 5 wide empty sets.

Question:
Do you think Cam would have been as productive and dynamic in a traditional pro-style offense?

Oh that reminds me, if the plan is to use the offense Kyle used in Houston with Schuab with lots of traditional 3-5-7 step drops then no, I don't want the same.

However if Kyle incorporates more of his Dad's concepts, like doing stuff off bootlegs and focusing on establishing the run then I would definitely want to see the same offense.

I mean either way Kyle is going to call the plays the question is which style is he going to use. Personally I imagine that he's going to want to move RG3 around and the reason it was more traditional in Houston (and Washington to an extent) was due to Schuab's (Grossman's) limited mobility.

[imaskin4life]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag59

I say same but better as long as the Shanahan's are in town. If the Shanahans get fired then at that point it may be best to bring in someone that will design an entire offense around RG3's skill set with RG3, similar to how Drew Brees and Sean Payton essentially designed the Saints offense together.

I agree. Ideally, you want to be able to utilize your player's talents to the fullest but not to the extent where you suppress your own talents as a coach/playcaller. As a coach/coordinator, you need to have the ability to run the newly installed system in real time in game situations as defenses adjust. This takes experience. You can't be learning as you go -- you need to be effective right now. You don't want to be a amatuer play-caller at running a new system going against defenses who are experts, experienced at defending it. This WILL get you fired.

The Shanahans should add some plays to highlight RG3's skillset to their playbook but they should not get TOO far away from their expertise.
For this reason its best to go "same but better". We can add some spread, option, etc. but not completely convert to a new system(unless you can run it as an expert right away OR your bringing in a coaching staff whose specialty is that offense).

I actually prefer Shanahan's playaction system anyway. It's just hard to run it when you have no protection, ineffective rushing attack, slow receivers who can't get separation or can't beat the press, and a qb who can't throw OR run. And considering all of those flaws, I actually thought we did OK last year. Imagine what we can do if we can do with the right personnel. If we have weapons and protection, they can't over-key or over-pursue the ball. It will be interesting to see how defenses defend us with all of those options available - RB/WR/TE/QB.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by imaskin4life

I agree. Ideally, you want to be able to utilize your player's talents to the fullest but not to the extent where you suppress your own talents as a coach/playcaller. As a coach/coordinator, you need to have the ability to run the newly installed system in real time in game situations as defenses adjust. This takes experience. You can't be learning as you go -- you need to be effective right now. You don't want to be a amatuer play-caller at running a new system going against defenses who are experts, experienced at defending it. This WILL get you fired.

But why do attribute negative results to adding spread concepts to the offense?

I think you do NFL coaches a disservice when you imply adding new concpets would turn them into amatuers or that or that adapting their offense equates to suppressing their own talents.

Some OCs like our very own Joe Gibbs have drastically changed their offense on the fly during the season (as has Chan Gailey w/Chiefs and Denver last year).
Rob Chudzinksi is from the San Deigo Air Coryell tree yet effectively ran an offense that featured a lot of spread elements with a sprinkle of zone read.
Chan Gailey basically runs a spread offense with the Bills.

Being able to adapt is a hallmark of innovation not of suppression.

By the time a coach makes it to NFL there aren't many concepts they haven't explored.
Therefore I don't think any offensive concepts are going to be completely 'new'.
Kyle like most OCs already runs some spread concepts:

Week 1: Redskins-28 Giants-14 - YouTube

The Shanahans should add some plays to highlight RG3's skillset to their playbook but they should not get TOO far away from their expertise.
For this reason its best to go "same but better". We can add some spread, option, etc. but not completely convert to a new system(unless you can run it as an expert right away OR your bringing in a coaching staff whose specialty is that offense).

Scratching head; 'the same but better' is different scenario then adding some spread and some option.
Which would be more like this option:

the offense formations will change and our offense will adopt and feature some of Baylor's formations and concepts, like they way the Panthers added some of Auburns formations, plays and concepts?

Except, I guess you don't want to alter the offense to as great of an extent as the Panther and the Bills?