Ukraine mega thread

[mooby]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Does Ukraine want to join NATO or does NATO want Ukraine as a member? I think is kinda a sticking issue which hasn’t been answered.

Good point.

I kinda lurk in this thread because I don't have much of an opinion besides "Russia bad, Ukraine not as bad but still got problems"

[nonniey]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

10 maps that explain Russia's strategy - Business Insider

I found this article very interesting. It lays out in very clear terms the role that Ukraine/Russian geography plays and the dynamics of Russian geography. In particular was one pair of maps that showed the boundary of the German advance in 1942:


vs the current map if Ukraine is considered to be unfriendly to Russia:



Basically you could see a Russian mindset that they have lost nearly as much over the last 20 years as Germany took in 1942.

That new map is a bit off. Crimea and other parts of the Ukraine have already been taken by Russia (Map doesn't reflect that). And can you really count Belarus as it is allied to Russia?

[nonniey]

Originally Posted by BaltimoreSkins

Am I interpreting this correctly you dislike Ukraine, or am I reading into it?

Don't know how you came to that conclusion- Did you miss the very first word of my post?

[BaltimoreSkins]

Originally Posted by nonniey

Don't know how you came to that conclusion- Did you miss the very first word of my post?

It was the use of the word "the" in front of the name. It is considered derogatory towards Ukraine because the name means borderland. When "the" is put in front it implies they do not have government autonomy so I wasn't sure if that was intentional on your part to call them a Russian borderland.

[SunnySide]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Does Ukraine want to join NATO or does NATO want Ukraine as a member? I think is kinda a sticking issue which hasn’t been answered.

WASHINGTON, Feb. 11, 2022 /PRNewswire/ -- In a survey conducted in Ukraine in a single day among 1,032 Ukrainians nationwide, 77% – more than three quarters – of respondents said they favored holding a referendum on whether to join NATO, remain neutral, or align with Russia, with results favoring the referendum across the board by region, gender, and age.

Respondents in the survey were given a definition of NATO as "the American-European joint military defense alliance" before answering the questions. Here are some of the significant findings:

Ukrainian respondents overwhelmingly favored joining NATO vs. neutrality by an almost two-to-one margin (55%-28%). They also indicated they would vote to join NATO vs. partnering with Russia by a 7:1 margin (55%- 8%).
Almost 2 out of 3 Ukrainians in the sample (65%) see economic benefits to joining the European Union, more than four times than those who prefer partnering with Russia economically (14%).

Comparing regions is important since historically, western Ukraine has been more nationalistic and anti-Russia vs. eastern Russian, where there are historically cultural and linguistic ties to Russia.

According to the results, a majority of Ukrainian respondents from eastern Ukraine favor a referendum on whether to join NATO, remain neutral, or partner with Russia, by a margin of 64%-36%.
Even on the issue of joining NATO vs. partnering with Russia, the normally more pro-Russian eastern region favors joining NATO over Russia by a margin of 31% - 20%. However, the easterners prefer neutrality over joining NATO by a margin of 38% - 31%, which is too small to be statistically significant.
In sum, when asked to choose between neutrality or aligning with NATO vs. partnering with Russia, 69% of the normally pro-Russian respondents in the eastern region choose neutrality/NATO vs. 20% that chose partnering with Russia.
On the other hand, sentiment among western Ukrainian respondents on the referendum and joining NATO was, as expected, overwhelmingly in favor of both. 92% of westerners favor a referendum vs. 8% opposed, and on whether to join NATO vs. neutrality or partnering with Russia, 81% favor joining NATO, 11% favor neutrality, and only 3% (statistically equivalent to zero) favor partnering with Russia.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...301480696.html

Its a poll of about 1k Ukraines so .. its light weight.

--------------------

Ukraine will never be a formal member of NATO but I think Russia doesnt like the fact that its already being treated as an informal member. Lots of strategic sharing on intelligence and equipment. Israel blocked Ukraine form getting the Iron Dome (gotta love Israel).

Putin demands were to have a pro Russia installment back in Ukraine like how it was pre 2014 revolution when Ukraine kicked their pro Russian president out who is now in exile in mother Russia.

This is just what I read, I have no original thoughts on this.

[nonniey]

Originally Posted by BaltimoreSkins

It was the use of the word "the" in front of the name. It is considered derogatory towards Ukraine because the name means borderland. When "the" is put in front it implies they do not have government autonomy so I wasn't sure if that was intentional on your part to call them a Russian borderland.

Well wasn't tracking that, I guess I always used that language and never changed after Ukraine became independent.

[BaltimoreSkins]

Ha well you are pretty worldly based on your posts so I wasn't sure if that was meant as a clever dig.

[SunnySide]

Seems like its starting to happen.

Russa and pro russian rebels (also russia)claim Ukraine tried to blow up a chemical plant in Donbas, Ukraine.

Pro Russian rebel leaders (also Russia) have ordered the evacuation to Russia bc of an incoming Ukraine invasion .. of the Donbas region of Ukraine.

A car parked conveniently in an empty parking lot outside of the pro russian rebels building blew up.

Videos of orphanages being evacuated.

https://www.onmanorama.com/news/worl...on-russia.html

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

Seems like its starting to happen.

Russa and pro russian rebels (also russia)claim Ukraine tried to blow up a chemical plant in Donbas, Ukraine.

Pro Russian rebel leaders (also Russia) have ordered the evacuation to Russia bc of an incoming Ukraine invasion .. of the Donbas region of Ukraine.

A car parked conveniently in an empty parking lot outside of the pro russian rebels building blew up.

Videos of orphanages being evacuated.

https://www.onmanorama.com/news/worl...on-russia.html

Yeah it was only a matter of time before Ukraine gave Putin no choice….

[sdskinsfan2001]

Newman: I'm not beaten yet. I still have armies in the Ukraine.

Kramer: [chuckles] Yeah? The Ukraine. Do you know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine.

Ukrainian Man: I come from Ukraine. You not say Ukraine weak.

Kramer: Yeah, well we're playing a game here, pal.

Ukrainian Man: Ukraine is game to you?! How about I take your little board and smash it!

[BaltimoreSkins]

I see EU and US are doing their best IOC impersonation with Russia

[sdskinsfan2001]

Originally Posted by BaltimoreSkins

I see EU and US are doing their best IOC impersonation with Russia

But, but, they only sent in some peacekeepers.

[sdskinsfan2001]

Nato, U.N., absolutely useless for us to be in. We pay all the money, our men and women do most of the dying, etc. The whole world takes advantage of us.

If we were fully energy independent, as we EASILY could be and should be, this would be a Europe problem and still should be. We give our debt to China and buy energy from Russia. We give our greatest enemies great leverage over us. I swear we're trying to lose. Weird stuff.

I guess I'm officially back to sharing political opinions. I made it 52 days without saying anything possibly argumentative. Just a little short of 365 days, but still about 45 days longer than I thought I would make it.

[Giantone]

JHC , I see the pro trump crowed ignoring their master's BS again!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...y-youd-expect/


‘Genius,’ ‘Savvy’: Trump reacts to Putin’s moves on Ukraine exactly as you’d expect


“In the last 24 hours we know Russia has said that they are recognizing two breakaway regions of Ukraine, and now this White House is stating that this is an ‘invasion,’ ” host Buck Sexton said. “That’s a strong word. What went wrong here? What has the current occupant of the Oval Office done that he could have done differently?”

“Well, what went wrong was a rigged election,” Trump said, once again misrepresenting the results of the 2020 presidential contest. “What went wrong is a candidate that shouldn’t be there and a man that has no concept of what he’s do — ”
Trump said “doing,” actually, but Harrington’s clip cut off a bit too early. That’s probably because of what Trump said next.

“I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, ‘This is genius,’ ” Trump continued. “Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine — of Ukraine. Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful. So, Putin is now saying, ‘It’s independent,’ a large section of Ukraine. I said, ‘How smart is that?’ And he’s gonna go in and be a peacekeeper. That’s strongest peace force … We could use that on our southern border.”

He continued to praise Putin a bit later.

“Here’s a guy that says, you know, ‘I’m gonna declare a big portion of Ukraine independent’ — he used the word ‘independent’ — ‘and we’re gonna go out and we’re gonna go in and we’re gonna help keep peace,’ ” Trump said. “You gotta say that’s pretty savvy. And you know what the response was from Biden? There was no response.”

Harrington’s clip didn’t include all of that about how Putin’s move was “genius” and “smart” and “savvy,” something Trump said more than once. And when your press person is cutting off quotes early, that’s not an accident

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by sdskinsfan2001

Nato, U.N., absolutely useless for us to be in. We pay all the money, our men and women do most of the dying, etc. The whole world takes advantage of us.

If we were fully energy independent, as we EASILY could be and should be, this would be a Europe problem and still should be. We give our debt to China and buy energy from Russia. We give our greatest enemies great leverage over us. I swear we're trying to lose. Weird stuff.

I guess I'm officially back to sharing political opinions. I made it 52 days without saying anything possibly argumentative. Just a little short of 365 days, but still about 45 days longer than I thought I would make it.

This is a better way for the trump sheep to understand what's happening .