The Obama Years- A GOP love story

[CRedskinsRule]

going further, and I am not a Putin fan, but here is his statement to his economic advisors and published to the world:

ou know that a terrible event occurred today in the sky over Ukraine, an awful tragedy -- a civilian plane was killed, 285 people, according to preliminary information, were killed.

On behalf of the Russian leadership and the Russian government, we express condolences to the bereaved families, the governments of those countries whose nationals were on that plane. I ask you to honor their memory.

(A moment of silence)

In this regard, I want to note that this tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on this land, if the military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine. And, certainly, the state over whose territory this occurred bears responsibility for this awful tragedy.

I have already given instructions to the military departments to provide all necessary assistance in the investigation of this crime. And I also ask the government of the Russian Federation through the available civilian agencies that have the capability to do everything for a thorough investigation of this event. We will do everything -- everything that depends on us, anyway -- in order that the objective picture of what happened is part of the public domain here, in Ukraine and in the rest of the world. This is an absolutely unacceptable thing, and no one has the right to let this pass without the appropriate conclusions and without all of us having objective information about the incident.

Note, he didn't say his first priority was to see if any Russians were on board, instead he offered a line of condolences to everyone, and moved on. He then outlined his country's position(ridiculous as it is) laying the incident on Kiev's feet, then making a national directive to his equivalent of the FAA and other agencies to make their resources available and be ready, and finally stating that the act of shooting a civilian plane is an "absolutely unacceptable thing".

If someone doesn't see the difference the 2 leaders statements and actions present in terms of the gravity of the situation, then I don't know that any internet words ever would.

[Chico23231]

A good start Tshile is single strong statement by the President stating those who shot down the plane will be held accountable period. Align yourself first and collect the facts.


My kneejerk impression is this will be anti aircraft missle fired by separtist either on the border or on the Russian side. Because the missile was supplied by Russia they bare ultimate responsibility. And that would be the next statement by the President and then you take the facts to the EU, Nato, United nations...

[tshile]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Again, you aren't getting specifics on the internet forums, but you are also quick to dismiss the specifics that I did mention. Being at a fundraiser reflects a lack of concern, could he have resolved the issue by skipping the fundraiser, maybe - maybe not, but he could have demonstrated to the parties involved that it was a serious incident to shoot down a civilian jet. He could have used that time to meet with national security and congressional national security representatives. Perhaps they sit on their thumbs and twiddle their fingers, but Russian and separatists would have to at least believe they were going over possible responses at the US could take, including, coordinating having FAA, Malaysian, and international crews on the ground in Ukraine controlled territory and waiting impatiently for the separatists to allow them onsite. We could have announced that we will seek permission from Kiev to allow AWAC overflight of West Ukraine. Going to a fundraiser, and not speaking publicly (not press releases that G1 referred to), sends a message to world community.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the President could have held a national telecast, instead of a fundraiser, and brought the shooting of a civilian aircraft, operating along a known civilian route, under the shining light of US auspices, or discussed how that act brings a new and dangerous dimension to the fight in Ukraine. He could have highlighted the peaceful election and the high percentage support for the new Kiev government and directly call on the separatists to lay down their arms and meet with Kiev. He could have been working with Merkel, and the other European national leaders, to craft a proposal that would entice the separatists to the table, or crafting a UN resolution to create a UN sponsored peace talks under UN auspices.

All of this is to say that there are specific and substantive acts that a US President can, and should, take when a hostile force attacks a civilian aircraft with reckless abandon, and these acts should be immediate, obvious, and carry the full weight and stature of the office of the President and the power and force of the US world status. Instead, this President chose to release a meaningless release saying we don't even know if any US citizens were on board (so the other 270 or so human beings aren't important?, or the free and safe passage of civilian airlines aren't important), and attend a fundraiser that does nothing to unite the nation, or bring this to the nation as a whole under the seal of the President of the United States of America.

It's easy to do nothing (hell I try and get away with it every day LOL) and it's safer to sit back and offer platitudes to international leaders. It's incumbent on the US President though to be a national LEADER of actions, and not a middle management zombie going through motions of a political hack.

and G1- this is how CBS reported the President's statement:


Again, that's a Hallmark condolences card with a statement of American ignorance (why say we don't know if there were US citizens on the aircraft, it's a useless sentence and a silly first priority, whether or not US citizens were killed should be secondary to assuring safe passage of civilian aircraft at heights of 33,000 feet). That's NOT a US President acting as a leader on a world stage. If that and the condolences to Poreshenko and the Malaysian leader is all the US President needs to do, then we should just vote in the owner of Hallmark in the next election.

That's fair.

It just irks me when you see criticism with no real alternative suggested, especially in a situation like this. You want UN Peace Keepers on the ground? well... they're having a meeting about that today, I honestly don't know what you or anyone else could have done differently in that regard. You want sanctions? We're already doing that...

If the criticism is that he went to a fundraiser, then so be it. We have plenty of examples of other presidents doing similar things. It irked me just as much when people criticized Bush for continuing to read to the children after finding out about 9-11... it seems like shallow criticism from people without a clue as to what is actually going on in totality in that situation. As if the entire arm of military, foreign policy, and intelligence of the United States is temporarily disabled and on standby because the President went to a fundraiser; or chose to continue to read to the children.

If your additional criticism is that he gave a lackluster speech on the issue, or that he missed an important opportunity to be a leader, then I get that. It's ironic... the president that's known for being a great speech maker and not much else, can't seem to make a meaningful speech when it matters

I have no idea what the right response to this situation is... I'd like to see the people responsible put on trial for high crimes and put to death if found guilty, but I don't know how we can do that if Russia decides to protect them (Maybe some of them are in Russia's military/political offices???)

In fact... if the interest is in punishing those responsible (assuming they were terrorists, or someone that made a mistake in the war going on in the area [on either side]) then we need Russia to cooperate and grandstanding and using this as a chance to take shots at them isn't going to help at all...

But it seems like every time something like this happens we hear a lot of crowing from whatever group is opposed to the sitting president when things like this happens, when the truth is majority of the people crowing don't have a clue of what is actually going on, much less what should be going on.

The idea of finding out all the facts before demanding action seems to be a lost virtue these days... it's always hurry up and do something, then criticize whatever that something is.

[Chico23231]

Well the fact is T this may have been avoided if Obama would have lead to begin with. Reactive policy isnt the way to lead, and thats where we are at.

You seen Iraq lately? the country is cut into 3 parts right now.

Obama policy tends to be stand at a dam wall and plug the holes with his fingers as leaks start appearing. You think thats the right way to do things? The administration is seriously lacking a third eye...piss poor is a better discription.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by tshile

That's fair.

It just irks me when you see criticism with no real alternative suggested, especially in a situation like this. You want UN Peace Keepers on the ground? well... they're having a meeting about that today, I honestly don't know what you or anyone else could have done differently in that regard. You want sanctions? We're already doing that...

If the criticism is that he went to a fundraiser, then so be it. We have plenty of examples of other presidents doing similar things. It irked me just as much when people criticized Bush for continuing to read to the children after finding out about 9-11... it seems like shallow criticism from people without a clue as to what is actually going on in totality in that situation. As if the entire arm of military, foreign policy, and intelligence of the United States is temporarily disabled and on standby because the President went to a fundraiser; or chose to continue to read to the children.

If your additional criticism is that he gave a lackluster speech on the issue, or that he missed an important opportunity to be a leader, then I get that. It's ironic... the president that's known for being a great speech maker and not much else, can't seem to make a meaningful speech when it matters

I have no idea what the right response to this situation is... I'd like to see the people responsible put on trial for high crimes and put to death if found guilty, but I don't know how we can do that if Russia decides to protect them (Maybe some of them are in Russia's military/political offices???)

In fact... if the interest is in punishing those responsible (assuming they were terrorists, or someone that made a mistake in the war going on in the area [on either side]) then we need Russia to cooperate and grandstanding and using this as a chance to take shots at them isn't going to help at all...

But it seems like every time something like this happens we hear a lot of crowing from whatever group is opposed to the sitting president when things like this happens, when the truth is majority of the people crowing don't have a clue of what is actually going on, much less what should be going on.

The idea of finding out all the facts before demanding action seems to be a lost virtue these days... it's always hurry up and do something, then criticize whatever that something is.

Again you referencing war...you can be aggressive without firing a shot. How many times I gotta say this? War is reactive thinking, but the fact is you gotta do something...

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Again you referencing war...you can be aggressive without firing a shot. How many times I gotta say this? War is reactive thinking, but the fact is you gotta do something...

No, I'm not referencing war.

I'm pointing out that if it was indeed members of Russian military that did this, then the only way we're ever going to figure out who and why, and attempt to bring anyone to justice, is with the cooperation of Russia.

The rest of the world leaders going on TV and finger shaming Putin isn't going to help in that cause. More sanctions isn't going to help in that cause. Any sign of military aggression (reposition of ships, troops on borders, creating and patrolling no fly zones, etc etc etc) is not going to help.

In fact, I think it's reasonable to assume that those types of things are likely to shut down any real cooperation and communication between Russia and the rest of the world, resulting in not being able to conduct an investigation properly and bring people to trial.

"you gotta do something..."

I keep hearing that everywhere I turn... Here. Radio. TV. I don't hear much else to back it up.


edit: Oh, maybe it was my 'using this to take shots' that confused what I was saying. I mean figuratively, not literally

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Well the fact is T this may have been avoided if Obama would have lead to begin with. Reactive policy isnt the way to lead, and thats where we are at.

You seen Iraq lately? the country is cut into 3 parts right now.

Obama policy tends to be stand at a dam wall and plug the holes with his fingers as leaks start appearing. You think thats the right way to do things? The administration is seriously lacking a third eye...piss poor is a better discription.

You're absolutely right. This issue, as with many other foreign policy issues we're facing right now, can easily be traced back to the last 6 years of bad foreign policy on behalf of the administration.

That's the easy conversation to have. I don't know many people that are informed on the goings-on int he world that think we've done a good job in the last 6 years. Africa is becoming a mess. The middle east is a mess. Eastern europe is a mess. Central America is a mess.

Ironically enough Afghanistan is the only success and as far as I know Bush is the one that deserves credit, not Obama. Everything else is a complete disaster right now.

The harder conversation to have is what do we do *now*.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by tshile

No, I'm not referencing war.

I'm pointing out that if it was indeed members of Russian military that did this, then the only way we're ever going to figure out who and why, and attempt to bring anyone to justice, is with the cooperation of Russia.

The rest of the world leaders going on TV and finger shaming Putin isn't going to help in that cause. More sanctions isn't going to help in that cause. Any sign of military aggression (reposition of ships, troops on borders, creating and patrolling no fly zones, etc etc etc) is not going to help.

In fact, I think it's reasonable to assume that those types of things are likely to shut down any real cooperation and communication between Russia and the rest of the world, resulting in not being able to conduct an investigation properly and bring people to trial.

"you gotta do something..."

I keep hearing that everywhere I turn... Here. Radio. TV. I don't hear much else to back it up.


edit: Oh, maybe it was my 'using this to take shots' that confused what I was saying. I mean figuratively, not literally

Ok, so assuming the facts will find Russia and the separtists downed the plane what you have now is Netherlands as a stakeholder. How did this all begin any ways...right Ukraine moving closer to the EU and then reversing that decision and signing a deal with Russia. You gotta rally around the fact Europe has now been affected by this war with the plane down. Rally the Netherlands and the EU. EU has to demand this war ends. Isolate Russia..work sanctions and threatin embargo. Engage other stakeholders..the other ex Soviet states. Organize them together with the EU. Dont engage Russia in any of this. Then you gotta bring the guilt trip down on the separtist...you caused this, a killing of innocents. At the same time we getting economic aggreements signed with the EU and the ex soviet states. The move really is to isolate Russia and get the EU to buy into the Ukraine (among the other ex soviet states) and the ends is to get the Separtist to the table to talk disarmanent and permanent ceasefire, inclusion within the goverment. After that...Russia is gonna be pissed, then you engage them to not negotiate but to tell them this is how the future of Europe looks.

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Ok, so assuming the facts will find Russia and the separtists downed the plane what you have now is Netherlands as a stakeholder. How did this all begin any ways...right Ukraine moving closer to the EU and then reversing that decision and signing a deal with Russia. You gotta rally around the fact Europe has now been affected by this war with the plane down. Rally the Netherlands and the EU. EU has to demand this war ends. Isolate Russia..work sanctions and threatin embargo. Engage other stakeholders..the other ex Soviet states. Organize them together with the EU. Dont engage Russia in any of this. Then you gotta bring the guilt trip down on the separtist...you caused this, a killing of innocents. At the same time we getting economic aggreements signed with the EU and the ex soviet states. The move really is to isolate Russia and get the EU to buy into the Ukraine (among the other ex soviet states) and the ends is to get the Separtist to the table to talk disarmanent and permanent ceasefire, inclusion within the goverment. After that...Russia is gonna be pissed, then you engage them to not negotiate but to tell them this is how the future of Europe looks.

The problem I have with that plan is that it basically means we're feigning outrage over the airliner - because nothing in that does anything about the airliner being shot down. This recent incident becomes nothing more than a pawn in a bigger Us Vs Russia game and nothing else. Is there anyone that actually thinks, if Russia is responsible, that they did this on purpose? If so, what's the motive? Russia has nothing to gain and much to lose if it's found out they purposefully show down a civilian airliner....

To me it seems like your plan leads us down a path of nothingness.... Russia denies doing it... the international community blames them... but no one is ever held accountable, no legitimate investigation is ever really done, the truth is never actually discovered only muddled enough by both sides to cause people to fall back on their predisposition to the whole US vs Russia issue to begin with.

Those families actually affected by the issue receive... nothing.

And the whole thing becomes just a small part of the bigger issue.

Which is fine - if that's what you want. But I'd prefer the people that want that to stop feigning the outrage over the airliner, because with that plan it certainly seems like the actual shooting down of the airliner is at the bottom of their priority list.

[CRedskinsRule]

I will let it go after one last statement, because it seems like you don't really want to believe there are other ways to handle this.

my last statement:
The US President has a bully pulpit like no other in the world, and the assets to assess rapidly occurring events with amazing efficiency. In THIS case, an unarmed, civilian, aircraft flying along a well known flight path, shot down with anti aircraft missiles, that bully pulpit should have been used to initiate specific responses - several of which I outlined. I don't care if it's a republican president, a democratic president, or a libertarian president. Our position in the world and the office of the Presidency demands that we have more than a Hallmark card response. We didn't see that in THIS case, which happens to be under President Obama's watch.

my last "specific responses":
-- Emergency meeting with National Security Advisors and top congressional members from both parties
-- Televised national unity speech that outlines concerns for air traffic safety, and use of anti-aircraft rockets against civilian flights
-- Send FAA advisors to Ukraine today and make a public show that they either are being allowed on site immediately or question why not.
-- (privately yesterday, and assuming the yes answer announce first thing this morning) offer US AWAC monitoring over Ukranian Air Space. It does put us at a small risk, that someone might shoot an AWAC down, but it sends a HUGE message that commercial airspace is important to the US. Even Offer joint missions with Russia if the President decides to do that, I remember when Reagan offered to share SDI with Russia, sure it's not likely they will accept the offer, but you are leading not reacting.
-- Call for the UN to authorize IMMEDIATE peacekeeping troops
-- Reiterate that Crimea is part of Ukraine sovereign territory.

The US could have done any or all of these things without any risk (except the AWACs) of a shooting war between Russia and the US, and it would have presented a far different path then one where your adversary sees you attending a partisan event, with no notable response to such an egregious act.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by tshile

The problem I have with that plan is that it basically means we're feigning outrage over the airliner - because nothing in that does anything about the airliner being shot down. This recent incident becomes nothing more than a pawn in a bigger Us Vs Russia game and nothing else. Is there anyone that actually thinks, if Russia is responsible, that they did this on purpose? If so, what's the motive? Russia has nothing to gain and much to lose if it's found out they purposefully show down a civilian airliner....

To me it seems like your plan leads us down a path of nothingness.... Russia denies doing it... the international community blames them... but no one is ever held accountable, no legitimate investigation is ever really done, the truth is never actually discovered only muddled enough by both sides to cause people to fall back on their predisposition to the whole US vs Russia issue to begin with.

Those families actually affected by the issue receive... nothing.

And the whole thing becomes just a small part of the bigger issue.

Which is fine - if that's what you want. But I'd prefer the people that want that to stop feigning the outrage over the airliner, because with that plan it certainly seems like the actual shooting down of the airliner is at the bottom of their priority list.

LOL ooooooooohhhhh so you want justice for the families? So YOUR moving the ends now. So your down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting. I expect that from this generation.

Its more of a strategy than a plan. See you got to lead for it work, you have to convice and persuade...its not easy. You have to get others to buy in and give it a vision. Its called leadership...

There was no motive for Russia to do this, it was an accident. Come'on. motive? really

[tshile]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I will let it go after one last statement, because it seems like you don't really want to believe there are other ways to handle this.

Ok.

I'm not sure why you think that way, I was trying to be very open and genuine in asking what should be done and I thought I responded thoughtfully to your last post. Oh well.

By the way - You have no way of knowing that many of your suggested actions have not been, or not currently in the process of being, done. Just sayin'.

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

LOL ooooooooohhhhh so you want justice for the families? So YOUR moving the ends now. So your down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting. I expect that from this generation.

Its more of a strategy than a plan. See you got to lead for it work, you have to convice and persuade...its not easy. You have to get others to buy in and give it a vision. Its called leadership...

There was no motive for Russia to do this, it was an accident. Come'on. motive? really

I don't think what I want is relevant, to be honest. But I thought generally people would want justice - not for the families, but against the people that shot down a commercial airliner. There is a tad bit of a difference there.

I'm not sure what sparks you to think I'm down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting, much less what caused you to take shots at my 'generation.' You seem to be quick to size up who I am after what... 50 posts here, only a handful having anything to do with politics? Nice to know...

If you're not interested in motive for taking such a heinous action then I don't suppose you're interested in any of the facts at all, or the actual issue of an airliner being downed.

Which, as I said, is fine. But please... spare us the fake outrage over the airliner... that's clearly not your actual issue.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by tshile

Ok.

I'm not sure why you think that way, I was trying to be very open and genuine in asking what should be done and I thought I responded thoughtfully to your last post. Oh well.

By the way - You have no way of knowing that many of your suggested actions have not been, or not currently in the process of being, done. Just sayin'.

I think that you have summarily dismissed every suggestion with your last line "have not been or not currently in the process of being done" but that's simply wrong.

I know the following:
The President did NOT have a televised address to the country.
The President did NOT have FAA technicians on the ground in the Ukraine this morning, waiting to gain entry to the crash site.
The President did NOT meet with bipartisan members of congress while at the fund raiser.
The President did NOT in his initial public statement (or subsequent ones that I am aware of) condemn military force against commercial airlines and call publicly for all sides to acknowledge that safe passage of civilian airlines is an unmoveable fact.

Yes some things happen in the backdrop, but THIS incident should have been, imo, handle openly and forcefully within moments of assessing that it was a military rocket hitting a civilian airline, and the world knows it was not.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by tshile

I don't think what I want is relevant, to be honest. But I thought generally people would want justice - not for the families, but against the people that shot down a commercial airliner. There is a tad bit of a difference there.

I'm not sure what sparks you to think I'm down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting, much less what caused you to take shots at my 'generation.' You seem to be quick to size up who I am after what... 50 posts here, only a handful having anything to do with politics? Nice to know...

If you're not interested in motive for taking such a heinous action then I don't suppose you're interested in any of the facts at all, or the actual issue of an airliner being downed.

Which, as I said, is fine. But please... spare us the fake outrage over the airliner... that's clearly not your actual issue.

Im/We are outraged over the airliner, why are we not? The shooting of the plane is a rally point, you honor the victims by ending all this foolishness...I dont get fake outrage, 9/11 was feign outrage to invade Afganistan and stop the Taliban? Why cant we seek justice, do the investigation and stop the war in the Ukraine? See what i mean is this generation cant hold focus, its instant gratification and then move on. Internet shaming wont work on Russia.