Smoot lays the smack down (Skins/Bills) - mattyk edition

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I'll bet the teams that appear to be turning the corner haven't neglected their offensive lines for more than a decade. San Fran spent two first round choices on interior linemen a year or so ago. Remember, before Trent Williams, there were ZERO O-linemen selected in the first two rounds of the draft since Chris Samuels. We're seeing the results. Allen and Shanahan just haven't had enough drafts to assemble the line they really want.

San Francisco and Carolina have put a lot of resources into their respective offensive lines. People forget that Carolina has Ryan Kalil (sp?) at center and Jordan Gross at LT, those are two good foundations for an offensive line. I don't think the offensive line has been neglected, but there seems to be a steep drop off once you get to the back ups.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

San Francisco and Carolina have put a lot of resources into their respective offensive lines. People forget that Carolina has Ryan Kalil (sp?) at center and Jordan Gross at LT, those are two good foundations for an offensive line. I don't think the offensive line has been neglected, but there seems to be a steep drop off once you get to the back ups.

Agreed. But on the bright side, that is improvement...not long ago we had backups as starters.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Agreed. But on the bright side, that is improvement...not long ago we had backups as starters.

By not long ago do you mean yesterday?

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by GMScud

By not long ago do you mean yesterday?

I didn't mean through injury replacements, I meant as a matter of course.

[over the mountain]

chester, lich, montgomery, williams and brown seems like the best opening day line weve had in a long time.

i feel like weve done a good job revamping the O line the past 2 years. perhaps none are top tier talent but they are all seemingly solid starters imo. i guess we could use some upper end talent

i just dont feel like our O line needs that much more attention. were just really banged up right now.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Can't call for a youth movement and then lament letting someone like Hicks go.

Agree. The decision to get rid of a washed up player like Artis Hicks is not what is ailing this team right now.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

chester, lich, montgomery, williams and brown seems like the best opening day line weve had in a long time.

i feel like weve done a good job revamping the O line the past 2 years. perhaps none are top tier talent but they are all seemingly solid starters imo. i guess we could use some upper end talent

i just dont feel like our O line needs that much more attention. were just really banged up right now.

They've done a good job getting new bodies but that's about it. Anyone can sign bodies. Jamal Brown is pure garbage at RT. Not sure if he's more comfortable over on the left side but he can't play RT. So the Brown experiment over on the right side hasn't panned out at all. Fail. Also Chester isn't any good either. Who's idea was it to sign him???? Fail! The right side needs an overhaul!

[SirClintonPortis]

We ought to try and model player's return to us in dollar terms. Hicks would net us about 10 bucks for one or two more years. Only problem is, we need one thousand dollars coming from our linemen. Rookies might do worse than his 10 bucks, but they can do much better. And in the NFL, if you don't at least try to win big with your roster moves, you won't win at all.

[over the mountain]

i wouldnt write off chester yet. it seems we did sign him for a few mil more than he is probably worth but i think we are much better off with him compared to the other options. i dont think the 4 or 5 yr 21 mil deal will hinder us from upgrading the team or making other personnel moves.

with brown, after trent went down the talk was about how with browns leg injury he would be alot better off on the left side because he wouldnt have to anchor on his bad leg like he does on the right side and that he sounded excited and optimistic about his play stepping up on the left side vs the right . . . then our coaching staff keep him on the right side . . i would like to see brown move over to the left just to see if there is any truth to the notion he wont have to use his bad leg as much . .who knows maybe even a mental placebo effect might happen where brown plays better on the left b/c he thinks he can play better on the left.

hes always thought and consider himself a left tackle, thats why he got traded from the saints, they wanted him to play RT and be paid like a RT, he thought otherwise.

idk i was watching the game with no audio on a 1 foot by 1 foot tv yesterday but chester was doing well the first couple games when we ran the stretch, he was using his feet and getting into the second level like he is supposed to . .just no dang holes at all the last couple of weeks. 29 rushing yds, with the qb getting half of those is bad.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

How much OL depth do teams really have? I you lose two starters and it's pretty inevitable you're going to have some start some playing some retreads or inexperienced guys.

phi normally keeps 10 and has 8 that can start without giving up 9 sacks.

we were short 3 backups coming into the season. cook and locklear are the only backups we really have, and they're fairly low tier #2s. Ideally brown would be our 6th OL and not starting, and chester wouldn't be starting either.

I was shocked we didn't sign anyone good in the offseason (if anyone cares to check). If we got a new RG/RT and pushed those two to backupp status, we'd still need another backup OG and an upgrade to cook.

You can get by with average WRs and a decent QB if the line is good. 9 sacks and 30 yards rushing or whatever it was is beyond pathetic though.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Agree. The decision to get rid of a washed up player like Artis Hicks is not what is ailing this team right now.

Keeping a million WRs at the expense of good O-line depth is certainly hurting us. I don't care who is throwing the ball or who is catching it, we can't run the ball, and we have no time to throw (although from what I hear a few of those sacks were on Beck, not the line).

The defense is going backwards, the offense was never there to begin with, and we can't run the ball or stop the run. Barring a big turnaround, we may only win 1 or 2 more games. At this point I'm not even confident in the Miami game.

[#56fanatic]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Not buying the injures excuse. Every team has them and the better teams/organizations overcome them. The Eagles had O-line issues and they overcame them. Yesterday I saw a team that was outcoached. If your o-line is having trouble blocking a below average Bills d-line then make adjustments. Leave in more blockers, run some 3 step drops, run a screen or two, roll the pocket, run some quick hitting run plays...we did none of this yesterday!!!!! No adjustments!!!!!!!! You know where I'm going with this. Kyle needs to go. Yeah he can run an offense when everything is perfect for him. Most NFL OC's can. But what makes a really good OC is when a guy see's what he has and works a game plan or a system around that. See Jim Harbaugh, Chan Gailey and whoever the OC is for Carolina. I mean Jim Harbaugh is throwing passes to his O-linemen yesterday. Those guys can coach offense. Kyle can not, or can't when the chips are down. Oh yeah...Chad Rinehart is a starter on the Bills o-line! Ouch!

Injuries in our case is HUGE. We haven't put an emphasis on building depth for 10 years, so when starters go down it is a very big problem. As far as playcalling ability, Kyle was trying to roll out but Beck was missing some receivers that were open, tried some quick 3 step drops to get the ball out of his hands, but he was holding the ball or the receivers were not getting open. Having a whole new left side of the line causes issues all over the offense. We couldn't run, we couldn't pass protect so what else is there? Chan Gailey, SF, and Carolina have bonified playmakers on their team. Whether is Fitzpatrick, Fred Jackson, Steve Johnson on the bills, Frank Gore, Edwards, Vernon Davis, Crabtree on SF or Cam newton, DeAngelo Williams, Jonathan Stewart and STEVE " FREAKING" SMITH, along with greg olson and Shocky. so before you start calling out WHY other teams are better, they have better players. Those teams have used their draft picks over the last 5-7 years to gain those playmakers, we have not!! Lets not call out the coaching staff, they are dealing with what they have on the roster and are making it better. Kyle ran a very impressive offense in Houston for a few years, so I doubt he forgot how to coach.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Keeping a million WRs at the expense of good O-line depth is certainly hurting us. I don't care who is throwing the ball or who is catching it, we can't run the ball, and we have no time to throw (although from what I hear a few of those sacks were on Beck, not the line).

The defense is going backwards, the offense was never there to begin with, and we can't run the ball or stop the run. Barring a big turnaround, we may only win 1 or 2 more games. At this point I'm not even confident in the Miami game.

No. We're not going to be favored the rest of the season. My expectation is a 2-7 finish.

I can't think of any good reason why Donte Stallworth is here. I have a hypothesis though. I think he was kept because Shanahan didn't want to develop the reputation as a guy who will sign vets to one year contracts and just cut them at the end of camp.

Which is a pretty good idea. Until Donte Stallworth starts getting end arounds and third down targets. Then its awful.

Moss is injured and Stallworth is still useless.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Keeping a million WRs at the expense of good O-line depth is certainly hurting us. I don't care who is throwing the ball or who is catching it, we can't run the ball, and we have no time to throw (although from what I hear a few of those sacks were on Beck, not the line).

The defense is going backwards, the offense was never there to begin with, and we can't run the ball or stop the run. Barring a big turnaround, we may only win 1 or 2 more games. At this point I'm not even confident in the Miami game.

Artis Hicks and Donte Stallworth are essentially the same, except one guy plays a different position from the other. They will provide $0 worth of goods for us or anyone else one year from now. We need guys who have at least have a chance to be a million dollar player for us for multiple years, so we should be allocating our limited roster spots to prospects who have a chance to give us that, not old coots who do very little.

[Gary84Clark]

Originally Posted by diehard

Keep Allen. Fire the Shanahans and "Has-been" Haslett.

I agree totally this team has quit. Gibbs teams did not quit. We need character guys, not yes men. I think the Shannahan's have the two confused. The players they got rid of would not have quit. They would've talked smack after the game but would not have quit.