Ultimate Building Blocks: NFC East

[dmvskinzfan08]

Originally Posted by Nflnick11

Umm Samuel is the best corner in the division, simply because he comes up big in the playoffs, like intercepting tarvaris Jackson for a TD, then manning(s) he's physical, can play all types of coverages the whole deal, Newman isn't even in the same convorsation as him, same with rogers, if I were creating my own defense I would have nnamdi asomougha on one side and Samuel on the other side

You know what. I am going out on a limb. I think D Hall is the best CB in our division (talent wise). I think he is going to suprise a lot of people this year and make the prowl bowl. I also have him for 6+ interception. Write it down...

[Nflnick11]

Originally Posted by dmvskinzfan08

You know what. I am going out on a limb. I think D Hall is the best CB in our division (talent wise). I think he is going to suprise a lot of people this year and make the prowl bowl. I also have him for 6+ interception. Write it down...

Being the die hard skins fan I am, I hope you do prove me wrong and you got balls saying that halls better than Samuel and will be a pro bowler, but the reason he isn't better than Samuel is cause Samuel is a shut down corner no matter what defense he's in where as hall is a great corner in some defenses and a crappy corner in bump and run coverages...one game hall will shut down the opposing receiver the next game he'll get picked on a lot or burned a lot; yes I know all corners get beat, but some games I've seen hall get beat several times...Samuel not so much only against Fitzgerald, but of course Fitzgerald is the best WR in the NFL IMO, and all corners get abused by him...

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Calling Samuel the best CB in the division by far is an embarrassment. He's not better than Newman. He's not better than Rogers. He's probably not even better than Corey Webster, although I'm not going to go that far. He might not be the best CB on his own team.

I think talent-wise Carlos Rogers is pretty close to Asante Samuel, but Terrance Newman? I don't have a gillion metrics with which to make that comparison, but I can't think of any situation where I would want Newman over Samuel.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Calling Samuel the best CB in the division by far is an embarrassment. He's not better than Newman. He's not better than Rogers. He's probably not even better than Corey Webster, although I'm not going to go that far. He might not be the best CB on his own team.

DeMarcus Ware is painfully overrated. There were like 4 games last year where he may or may not have been dressed, I don't know. He's not great against the run, and a lot of his 20 sacks were concentrated in games against vastly inferior competition. Oh, and when the Cowboys needed one win in their last two games to make the playoffs, Ware got one sack, in the first quarter of the first game. He's not, say, Shawne Merriman or Justin Tuck good. Not even close.

You may not agree that he is the best CB in the division but to say it's embarrassment that someone thinks so is a little too far fetched. If Rogers went on the open market no one is going to pay him the money Samuel got. Samuel got that $ for a reason. He's pretty damn good. Not that getting a big contract in the NFL means you're great but I'd probably take Samuel over Rogers.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Calling Samuel the best CB in the division by far is an embarrassment. He's not better than Newman. He's not better than Rogers. He's probably not even better than Corey Webster, although I'm not going to go that far. He might not be the best CB on his own team.

DeMarcus Ware is painfully overrated. There were like 4 games last year where he may or may not have been dressed, I don't know. He's not great against the run, and a lot of his 20 sacks were concentrated in games against vastly inferior competition. Oh, and when the Cowboys needed one win in their last two games to make the playoffs, Ware got one sack, in the first quarter of the first game. He's not, say, Shawne Merriman or Justin Tuck good. Not even close.

GTripp, I think what you do with the football stats and using metrics is really cool. But at some point you have to reconcile what you're doing with common sense.

Saying Samuel as the best in the division = an embarrassment is a statement that doesn't just contradict common sense, it flies in the face of it.

If you're going to make such a statement, you need to post some of your kick ass metric stuff and summarize it in such a way that you might convince us why you're right. Otherwise these outlandish statements -with no support behind them - convince us of little other than your credibility is questionable.

You've got to show you can convert the stats into common sense discussion or nobody's going to buy it.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

GTripp, I think what you do with the football stats and using metrics is really cool. But at some point you have to reconcile what you're doing with common sense.

Saying Samuel as the best in the division = an embarrassment is a statement that doesn't just contradict common sense, it flies in the face of it.

If you're going to make such a statement, you need to post some of your kick ass metric stuff and summarize it in such a way that you might convince us why you're right. Otherwise these outlandish statements -with no support behind them - convince us of little other than your credibility is questionable.

You've got to show you can convert the stats into common sense discussion or nobody's going to buy it.

If I had all my materials at hand I think I could give you a much stronger answer. Unfortunately, I'm on the road right now, and do not. But I reject that common sense dictates that Samuel is the best CB in the division. The NFL has no mainstream way to judge a CB outside of he-said, she-said.

Anyway, Mosley says:

4. Asante Samuel, CB, Philadelphia Eagles: He's hands down the best cornerback in the division, although Terence Newman's close when healthy. The ball always seems to find Samuel, and that's the best compliment you can pay a defensive back.

This of course, is every bit as unsubstantiated as anything I said. There is not one reason given here to believe Samuel is deserving of being one of 10 NFC East building blocks.

Now, for his career, Samuel's coverage numbers (metrically) have been remarkably average. A lot better than Ellis Hobbs, but still, you can throw on him. Most of his value appears to be tied up in his 10 INT - pro bowl year in 2006. At that point, his value was at an all time high. I think, there was a lot of reasons to doubt Samuel then, (i.e. he came largely out of nowhere) but he was young, and promising, and had enjoyed a lot of postseason success as a beneficiary of a consistent playoff team.

So, since then, he's averaged 5 INTs a year, 6 in 07, and 4 in 08. A healthy rate, to be sure. But take Newman for example. The guy is basically 4 INTs a year, every year. So, what's the benefit of having a less established player in Samuel, over a top ten pick (both Newman and Rogers)? I know, for a fact that Carlos Rogers' coverage numbers are better than Samuels', and I think Newman has better numbers as well, though I'd like to look it up to be sure.

Nothing Asante Samuel accomplished this past season would have made me say, "Wow, that guy is the best corner in the NFC East." Admittedly, Rogers had much more of a chance to prove himself to me. But I got to watch two games of Newman, and two games of Samuel, and Newman has better instincts, he's a stronger cover corner, and his INT production is roughly identical, save an outliers year from Asante. So, I'm taking Newman, given what I know.

Until the argument for Samuel is made, I don't have much to respond to. I can make a solid, contextual argument for either Rogers, Newman, or Webster, but if people are going to assert that Samuel is definitely the best in the division, I'd sure like to hear why.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Calling Samuel the best CB in the division by far is an embarrassment. He's not better than Newman. He's not better than Rogers. He's probably not even better than Corey Webster, although I'm not going to go that far. He might not be the best CB on his own team.

DeMarcus Ware is painfully overrated. There were like 4 games last year where he may or may not have been dressed, I don't know. He's not great against the run, and a lot of his 20 sacks were concentrated in games against vastly inferior competition. Oh, and when the Cowboys needed one win in their last two games to make the playoffs, Ware got one sack, in the first quarter of the first game. He's not, say, Shawne Merriman or Justin Tuck good. Not even close.

LOL. Yeah right. Ask Chris Samuels or any NFL LT if he's overrated.

[Rajmahal33]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Calling Samuel the best CB in the division by far is an embarrassment. He's not better than Newman. He's not better than Rogers. He's probably not even better than Corey Webster, although I'm not going to go that far. He might not be the best CB on his own team.

DeMarcus Ware is painfully overrated. There were like 4 games last year where he may or may not have been dressed, I don't know. He's not great against the run, and a lot of his 20 sacks were concentrated in games against vastly inferior competition. Oh, and when the Cowboys needed one win in their last two games to make the playoffs, Ware got one sack, in the first quarter of the first game. He's not, say, Shawne Merriman or Justin Tuck good. Not even close.

I would take Samuel over either Newman or Rogers in a HEARTBEAT (contracts ignored)...That Corey Webster comparison has to be a joke right?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Rajmahal33

I would take Samuel over either Newman or Rogers in a HEARTBEAT (contracts ignored)...That Corey Webster comparison has to be a joke right?

Even ignoring contracts, why?

I don't have a lot of personal data regarding Corey Webster, but I have Giants-followers who are rarely full of it who really think they've got a shutdown type guy in Webster (and not Aaron Ross, fwiw). So that's why I'm not confident enough to go that far.

I've had more than enough Samuel to know where the guy stands. And each time I watch him, I never feel like I'm in the presence of greatness. I think, for every route that Samuel reads perfectly, makes a play on the ball, and turns it into six points, there's three or four plays he just misses for no really good reason. One of them cost the Pats a super bowl for instance, and another cost them a trip to the super bowl. This year, he missed an easy INT against us that could have given them the game with a decent return.

Basically, what Samuel has done in his career that makes the highlight reels isn't always an indicator of his effect on a game.

I think Samuel is a legit No. 1, but clearly, so are Rogers, Newman, and maybe Webster as well. Mosley pointed out Newman is close, but he didn't even mention Rogers or Webster, which is problematic if you are defending Samuel as the best CB in the division. At least identify all the alternatives.

[Pocket$ $traight]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Calling Samuel the best CB in the division by far is an embarrassment. He's not better than Newman. He's not better than Rogers. He's probably not even better than Corey Webster, although I'm not going to go that far. He might not be the best CB on his own team.

DeMarcus Ware is painfully overrated. There were like 4 games last year where he may or may not have been dressed, I don't know. He's not great against the run, and a lot of his 20 sacks were concentrated in games against vastly inferior competition. Oh, and when the Cowboys needed one win in their last two games to make the playoffs, Ware got one sack, in the first quarter of the first game. He's not, say, Shawne Merriman or Justin Tuck good. Not even close.

Wow... Pass the kool aid

Samuel was better than Newman last year and the year before that...
Samuel holds onto the ball so he is better then Rogers.

Ware is much better then Freeney. Freeney barely plays anymore.

[SmootSmack]

This tells me that Philip Rivers is better...and we're going after him next off-season!!

[Zerohero]

We didnt lose much on D and added two terrors yet the writer still doesn't think skins will make the playoffs. Interesting.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

This tells me that Philip Rivers is better...and we're going after him next off-season!!

............that the inside dope?

[Crash]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

This tells me that Philip Rivers is better...and we're going after him next off-season!!

I won't be shocked if we go after Rivers and Merriman

[MTK]

3. Albert Haynesworth, DT, Washington Redskins: He's the most dominant defensive tackle we've seen in years. He's virtually impossible to block one-on-one. I think he'll make a huge impact on the defense in '09. Enough to get the Skins to the playoffs? Probably not.

Why do "analysts" have such hard time taking a chance on saying the Skins will make the playoffs this year? Is it really that out of the question? They were a borderline playoff contender last year with miserable offense and a D that while played solid, couldn't pressure the QB or generate turnovers.

Now the offense should be improved in year #2 under Zorn, and the D should be able to get after the passer and create some more turnovers.

I dunno, to me it's not crazy to picture the Skins going 10-6 and being a wildcard.