Ukraine mega thread

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Giantone

In understanding the poster and his agenda it brings different meaning to the post's he puts up.

[SunnySide]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/photojour...090001901.html

Lots of really graphic photos from Bucha ...

war crimes.

"Never again will the world sit and watch ... "

[mooby]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

https://www.yahoo.com/news/photojour...090001901.html

Lots of really graphic photos from Bucha ...

war crimes.

"Never again will the world sit and watch ... "

Horrible. At a loss for words. Can't believe this is happening in 2022.

[CRedskinsRule]

I haven't been posting, mainly still done with the bickering here, but I also have to say, I can't believe the world hasn't stepped in militarily to protect Ukraine's sovereignty, or for the humanitarian tragedy that is going on. Mariupol should have been this generation's Berlin Airlift. UN Peacekeepers should have stepped in when Bucha pictures were shown around the world. And when the Russian tanks travel in open columns our drones, that were so effective at destroying Arab terrorists, and our stealth bombers should have been used to destroy those tanks before more civilian destruction happened.

It's a shame, but this era will be remembered as the prelude to WWIII, and future generations will wonder why Russia wasn't stopped at this point.

For the "but russia has nukes" response, There is no realistic way the defense establishment would allow the destruction of Russia for Putin's war. But they won't act until the world stands up and calls Putin out.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I haven't been posting, mainly still done with the bickering here, but I also have to say, I can't believe the world hasn't stepped in militarily to protect Ukraine's sovereignty, or for the humanitarian tragedy that is going on. Mariupol should have been this generation's Berlin Airlift. UN Peacekeepers should have stepped in when Bucha pictures were shown around the world. And when the Russian tanks travel in open columns our drones, that were so effective at destroying Arab terrorists, and our stealth bombers should have been used to destroy those tanks before more civilian destruction happened.

It's a shame, but this era will be remembered as the prelude to WWIII, and future generations will wonder why Russia wasn't stopped at this point.

For the "but russia has nukes" response, There is no realistic way the defense establishment would allow the destruction of Russia for Putin's war. But they won't act until the world stands up and calls Putin out.

The fear of a nuclear holocaust and destruction of the World will have that effect.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Giantone

The fear of a nuclear holocaust and destruction of the World will have that effect.

So you let a country that has clearly gone off the rails destroy and murder thousands or 10's of thousands of innocents. but they touch one inch of nato and all bets are off? There already is a holocaust going on, and the world stands witness to it.

We have invested trillions of dollars in our military over the last 30 years, we have built institutions (norad, Nato, and more) to prevent a successful nuclear attack. But I don't believe it would come to that in the least. Putin has used nuclear blackmail to a tee, but he also is facing more opposition within the military as well, there is no way the Russian military would launch a full nuclear strike if their territory isn't threatened.

We have more than the ability to stop the holocaust without stepping foot on Russian soil, and do it in a quick way. See Kuwait as a clear example of what a world's swift response should have looked like.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

So you let a country that has clearly gone off the rails destroy and murder thousands or 10's of thousands of innocents. but they touch one inch of nato and all bets are off? There already is a holocaust going on, and the world stands witness to it.

We have invested trillions of dollars in our military over the last 30 years, we have built institutions (norad, Nato, and more) to prevent a successful nuclear attack. But I don't believe it would come to that in the least. Putin has used nuclear blackmail to a tee, but he also is facing more opposition within the military as well, there is no way the Russian military would launch a full nuclear strike if their territory isn't threatened.

We have more than the ability to stop the holocaust without stepping foot on Russian soil, and do it in a quick way. See Kuwait as a clear example of what a world's swift response should have looked like.

If you swing and miss it would be a nuclear war.

To me, not supporting them with the air power agreement of moving planes to them from Poland is a major mistake.

Russia went for the throat and failed. They correctly fell back and will concentrate forces with established supply lines which are protected on the eastern front. They will encircle the very strong defense lines of the Ukraine eastern front. Once that’s done it’s over. Done.

[BaltimoreSkins]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

So you let a country that has clearly gone off the rails destroy and murder thousands or 10's of thousands of innocents. but they touch one inch of nato and all bets are off? There already is a holocaust going on, and the world stands witness to it.

We have invested trillions of dollars in our military over the last 30 years, we have built institutions (norad, Nato, and more) to prevent a successful nuclear attack. But I don't believe it would come to that in the least. Putin has used nuclear blackmail to a tee, but he also is facing more opposition within the military as well, there is no way the Russian military would launch a full nuclear strike if their territory isn't threatened.

We have more than the ability to stop the holocaust without stepping foot on Russian soil, and do it in a quick way. See Kuwait as a clear example of what a world's swift response should have looked like.

Ukraine don’t have oil. Therefore our inept leadership won’t give a shit. I should be posting in drunk thread. I am four deep into heavy seas double cannon and get hostile when drinking.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by BaltimoreSkins

Ukraine don’t have oil. Therefore our inept leadership won’t give a shit. I should be posting in drunk thread. I am four deep into heavy seas double cannon and get hostile when drinking.

Either you keep cracking beers or move to liquor. That’s a direct order!

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

So you let a country that has clearly gone off the rails destroy and murder thousands or 10's of thousands of innocents. but they touch one inch of nato and all bets are off? There already is a holocaust going on, and the world stands witness to it.

We have invested trillions of dollars in our military over the last 30 years, we have built institutions (norad, Nato, and more) to prevent a successful nuclear attack. But I don't believe it would come to that in the least. Putin has used nuclear blackmail to a tee, but he also is facing more opposition within the military as well, there is no way the Russian military would launch a full nuclear strike if their territory isn't threatened.

We have more than the ability to stop the holocaust without stepping foot on Russian soil, and do it in a quick way. See Kuwait as a clear example of what a world's swift response should have looked like.

Not saying I disagree with you about more help[ but you seem to want to sacrifice millions over this. A mad man has his fingers on the button to end the world, yes caution is advised.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Giantone

Not saying I disagree with you about more help[ but you seem to want to sacrifice millions over this. A mad man has his fingers on the button to end the world, yes caution is advised.

There isn't a button that Putin has a finger on. Russia has a defense complex, similar to the US and they are not going to launch nukes over Ukraine any more than the US would. Fact is, Biden was scared and inept early on, and Putin took that weakness for what weakness always is in the geopolitical realm - an opening.

A strong response (my opinion stealth bombers taking out that 40 mile column of tanks) would have blunted Putin's aggression, and as long as we stayed out of attacking Russia proper, the world would have rallied behind US leadership (again, drawing on the Kuwait parallel)

Rule 1 of international order should be - you cannot invade a non-aggressive sovereign country

[BaltimoreSkins]

Sticking with beer tonight but kno hangover will be worse

[CRedskinsRule]

Hard to argue with the Ukranian Defense Minister:

https://thehill.com/policy/internati...s-have-failed/

[Schneed10]

Ok set the rational actor vs not rational actor thing aside for a second because I don’t think that’s the main point.

I’m not sure what the difference is between the Berlin Airlift and what we’re actually doing in Ukraine. Because the US and other NATO countries are supplying Ukraine and avoiding direct conflict. And in Berlin supplies were flown in to sustain the Western controlled portions of Berlin. How the supplies are arriving there, whether by land sea or air, I don’t see any relevance. And which countries are providing the supplies, also not relevant.

Further I think you continue to focus on the events of the last 50 days rather than thinking ahead to the next 50, or 500, or 5000. The US and NATO must plan for contingencies, up to and including a Russia-China alliance and co-opted military engagement, the nuclear threat, and a determined Putin who may devalue the lives of his own soldiers - he may be willing to accept more losses than most leaders would to accomplish his objective. He draws that determination from a brainwashed public who supports him.

If Russia has exposed a 40 mile column of tanks with inadequate air cover once, do you not believe they’ll do it again? Or even that the US military even needs a door to be that wide open to walk through it? Just a little ajar is all we need to severely handicap their ground force in Ukraine.

So why rush in? You’re saying we’ve lost a chance, I’m saying we need to be ready for a sustained significant war that the western world can’t lose. First things first, shore up defenses in the Balkans, the Baltics, and complete the indoctrination of Sweden and Finland assuming they do indeed intend to join. Form a plan to maintain maritime control of the Adriatic so as to pin Russia’s navy within the Black Sea. Work with Japan Australia South Korea and India to plan for contingencies should China come to Russia’s aid - requiring a naval blockade of the South China Sea. etc

Because the second we do something like strafe 40 miles of Russian tanks with 30mm cannons from a squad of A10 Thunderbolts you have to assume Russia will activate contingency plans of its own and we have to be ready to maintain the upper hand, no matter which actions they take.

So you sustain Ukraine, don’t escalate unless you have to. Keep Russia busy and bogged down there while you spend your time planning 50 ways to kill them on every front.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Ok set the rational actor vs not rational actor thing aside for a second because I don’t think that’s the main point.

I’m not sure what the difference is between the Berlin Airlift and what we’re actually doing in Ukraine. Because the US and other NATO countries are supplying Ukraine and avoiding direct conflict. And in Berlin supplies were flown in to sustain the Western controlled portions of Berlin. How the supplies are arriving there, whether by land sea or air, I don’t see any relevance. And which countries are providing the supplies, also not relevant.

Further I think you continue to focus on the events of the last 50 days rather than thinking ahead to the next 50, or 500, or 5000. The US and NATO must plan for contingencies, up to and including a Russia-China alliance and co-opted military engagement, the nuclear threat, and a determined Putin who may devalue the lives of his own soldiers - he may be willing to accept more losses than most leaders would to accomplish his objective. He draws that determination from a brainwashed public who supports him.

If Russia has exposed a 40 mile column of tanks with inadequate air cover once, do you not believe they’ll do it again? Or even that the US military even needs a door to be that wide open to walk through it? Just a little ajar is all we need to severely handicap their ground force in Ukraine.

So why rush in? You’re saying we’ve lost a chance, I’m saying we need to be ready for a sustained significant war that the western world can’t lose. First things first, shore up defenses in the Balkans, the Baltics, and complete the indoctrination of Sweden and Finland assuming they do indeed intend to join. Form a plan to maintain maritime control of the Adriatic so as to pin Russia’s navy within the Black Sea. Work with Japan Australia South Korea and India to plan for contingencies should China come to Russia’s aid - requiring a naval blockade of the South China Sea. etc

Because the second we do something like strafe 40 miles of Russian tanks with 30mm cannons from a squad of A10 Thunderbolts you have to assume Russia will activate contingency plans of its own and we have to be ready to maintain the upper hand, no matter which actions they take.

So you sustain Ukraine, don’t escalate unless you have to. Keep Russia busy and bogged down there while you spend your time planning 50 ways to kill them on every front.

Overall I hear what you are saying. I hope that the Western world is following these thoughts. I don't think so though. I think we are falling in the same mindset that Neville Chamberlain brought to WW2. Most of the scenarios that we have witnessed up to today follow many parallels of events leading up to WW1 and WW2.