Trayvon Martin Case

[RedskinRat]

Things that make you go "Hmmmmm":

Documents published online Wednesday by a conservative watchdog group show that the Community Relations Service, an arm of the U.S. Justice Department, spent taxpayer dollars to help organize and implement plans for the initial string of rallies in Sanford, Florida following the 2012 shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

The protests were openly hostile to George Zimmerman, the volunteer neighborhood watch organizer who killed Martin, 17, after a struggle. Zimmerman is currently on trial in a Florida courtroom, charged with second-degree murder.

Its mandate includes 'assist[ing] State and local units of government, private and public organizations, and community groups with preventing and resolving racial and ethnic tensions, incidents, and civil disorders, and in restoring racial stability and harmony.'

Some of the Trayvon Martin protests, however, stoked racial animosity, with Black Panther Party members and the Rev. Al Sharpton suggesting that Zimmerman, a Latino man, was an example of white-on-black violence.

'These documents detail the extraordinary intervention by the Justice Department in the pressure campaign leading to the prosecution of George Zimmerman,' said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton.

'My guess is that most Americans would rightly object to taxpayers paying government employees to help organize racially-charged demonstrations.'

Obama: 'If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon'

<vomit>

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

Things that make you go "Hmmmmm":

Documents published online Wednesday by a conservative watchdog group show that the Community Relations Service, an arm of the U.S. Justice Department, spent taxpayer dollars to help organize and implement plans for the initial string of rallies in Sanford, Florida following the 2012 shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

The protests were openly hostile to George Zimmerman, the volunteer neighborhood watch organizer who killed Martin, 17, after a struggle. Zimmerman is currently on trial in a Florida courtroom, charged with second-degree murder.

Its mandate includes 'assist[ing] State and local units of government, private and public organizations, and community groups with preventing and resolving racial and ethnic tensions, incidents, and civil disorders, and in restoring racial stability and harmony.'

Some of the Trayvon Martin protests, however, stoked racial animosity, with Black Panther Party members and the Rev. Al Sharpton suggesting that Zimmerman, a Latino man, was an example of white-on-black violence.

'These documents detail the extraordinary intervention by the Justice Department in the pressure campaign leading to the prosecution of George Zimmerman,' said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton.

'My guess is that most Americans would rightly object to taxpayers paying government employees to help organize racially-charged demonstrations.'

Obama: 'If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon'

<vomit>

Does "Community Organizer" ring a bell.

[RedskinRat]

We ain't paying you by the word, JR....

[JoeRedskin]

lol ... if you were, it would be longer.

What can I say, it's a rough draft.

[Chico23231]

Hey Joe Im actually gonna be in around Columbia Maryland this weekend and probably will be committing some crimes. FYI. Ill PM Monday if need be

[JoeRedskin]

^^ lol

[JoeRedskin]

Interesting evidence excluded by the Judge, the “Connor” referred to is a computer forensics guy talking about information found on TM’s phone:

8:43 p.m. ET: There are text messages on the phone showing Martin had been in a fight, according to Connor . He also says these texts were stored in an application that is meant to hide text messages from the main database.

8:47 p.m. ET: Connor says if you want to see these hidden messages, you would have to know which application to use and put in the passcode for the application. Connor says this passcode is in addition to the code needed to open the phone itself.

8:52 p.m. ET: Connor is describing how he extracts data and puts it into tables on a database.

8:57 p.m. ET: A conversation between Martin and a friend is being read by Connor. Martin says he was fighting because someone snitched on him. She asks him why he's always fighting. Martin tells her he lost the first round but won the second and third rounds. She tells him several times that he needs to stop fighting.

9:01 p.m. ET: Connor says there was another text conversation that details the fight and he reads it out loud. Martin says the other guy had him on the ground for the first round.

9:03 p.m. ET: In a Facebook message, Connor says a relative asked Martin when he was going to teach him how to fight.

Judge delays ruling on animation, Martin's texts | HLNtv.com

The Judge determined that the authenticity of these statements could not be confirmed b/c there is no way to determine if TM was the one who actually sent the messages. [To pre-empt the inevitable “So what if he got into fights on occasion, it doesn’t prove he did here” assertions – the evidence is relevant and otherwise admissible for the same reasons that the prosecution introduced evidence of GZ’s MMA background.]

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by saden1

Let me get this...you are saying I can follow RedskinRat into an elevator...

Dude, we wouldn't even be in the same building unless I'm visiting you in jail to laugh at you.

[FRPLG]

You're aeguing wirh an actual practicing lawyer about how the law works.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

You're aeguing wirh an actual practicing lawyer about how the law works.

Correct. I don't have to be a lawyer or stay at a Holiday Inn to comprehend the law.

[over the mountain]

When self-defense is asserted, the defendant has the burden of producing
enough evidence to establish a prima facie case demonstrating the justifiable use of
force. Montijo v. State, 61 So. 3d 424, 427 (Fla. 5th DCA 2011); Fields v. State, 988
So. 2d 1185, 1188 (Fla. 5th DCA 2008); see Murray v. State, 937 So. 2d 277, 282 (Fla.
4th DCA 2006) (holding that law does not require defendant to prove self-defense to
any standard measuring assurance of truth, exigency, near certainty, or even mere
probability; defendant’s only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could
have been reasonable). Once the defendant makes a prima facie showing of selfdefense, the State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the
defendant did not act in self-defense. Fields, 988 So. 2d at 1188. The burden of proving
guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, including the burden of proving that the defendant did
not act in self-defense, never shifts from the State to the defendant. Montijo, 61 So. 3d
at 427; Fields, 988 So. 2d at 1188; see Monsansky v. State, 33 So. 3d 756 (Fla. 1st
DCA 2010) (explaining that defendant has burden to present sufficient evidence that he
acted in self-defense in order to be entitled to jury instruction on issue, but presentation

^^ after 2 seconds on google i found a 2012 florida appellate opinion (appears to be unreported) ... falwell v state, 5D10-2011

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

When self-defense is asserted, the defendant has the burden of producing
enough evidence to establish a prima facie case demonstrating the justifiable use of
force. Montijo v. State, 61 So. 3d 424, 427 (Fla. 5th DCA 2011); Fields v. State, 988
So. 2d 1185, 1188 (Fla. 5th DCA 2008); see Murray v. State, 937 So. 2d 277, 282 (Fla.
4th DCA 2006) (holding that law does not require defendant to prove self-defense to
any standard measuring assurance of truth, exigency, near certainty, or even mere
probability; defendant’s only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could
have been reasonable). Once the defendant makes a prima facie showing of selfdefense, the State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the
defendant did not act in self-defense. Fields, 988 So. 2d at 1188. The burden of proving
guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, including the burden of proving that the defendant did
not act in self-defense, never shifts from the State to the defendant. Montijo, 61 So. 3d
at 427; Fields, 988 So. 2d at 1188; see Monsansky v. State, 33 So. 3d 756 (Fla. 1st
DCA 2010) (explaining that defendant has burden to present sufficient evidence that he
acted in self-defense in order to be entitled to jury instruction on issue, but presentation

^^ after 2 seconds on google i found a 2012 florida appellate opinion (appears to be unreported) ... falwell v state, 5D10-2011

Yes, of course, the issue must be fairly raised for the instruction to be given - that is significantly different standard, however, than anything saden1 has alluded to. It simply enough evidence to raise a factual question on the issue such that it would survive a motion to dismiss. Further, the evidence can be brought out either by the defense or through the prosecution's evidence. Bottom line, once it gets to the jury and the instruction is given, "the burden of proving that the defendant did not act in self-defense, never shifts from the State to the defendant." i.e. State must eliminate all reasonable doubt as to one or more of the five elements.

In this case, by its indictment of murder2, the prosecution has made GZ's allegedly imperfect self defense claim an element of their charge. As I have said consistently, in this case, it is the State's burden of proof and persuasion to disprove one of the elements of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. I will concede that this will not be true IF AND ONLY IF the Prosecution can successfully argue that the quoted instructions should not be given b/c the evidence presented did not fairly generate a prima facie claim of self-defense.

Regardless of the subtleties on the issue -- Is anyone actually asserting that the evidence presented in this matter doesn't present a factual question as to whether GZ acted in self defense and that the jury instructions on self defense should not be given?

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

When self-defense is asserted, the defendant has the burden of producing
enough evidence to establish a prima facie case demonstrating the justifiable use of
force. Montijo v. State, 61 So. 3d 424, 427 (Fla. 5th DCA 2011); Fields v. State, 988
So. 2d 1185, 1188 (Fla. 5th DCA 2008); see Murray v. State, 937 So. 2d 277, 282 (Fla.
4th DCA 2006) (holding that law does not require defendant to prove self-defense to
any standard measuring assurance of truth, exigency, near certainty, or even mere
probability; defendant’s only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could
have been reasonable). Once the defendant makes a prima facie showing of selfdefense, the State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the
defendant did not act in self-defense. Fields, 988 So. 2d at 1188. The burden of proving
guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, including the burden of proving that the defendant did
not act in self-defense, never shifts from the State to the defendant. Montijo, 61 So. 3d
at 427; Fields, 988 So. 2d at 1188; see Monsansky v. State, 33 So. 3d 756 (Fla. 1st
DCA 2010) (explaining that defendant has burden to present sufficient evidence that he
acted in self-defense in order to be entitled to jury instruction on issue, but presentation

^^ after 2 seconds on google i found a 2012 florida appellate opinion (appears to be unreported) ... falwell v state, 5D10-2011

Hey, OTM. Enjoyed reading your posts, as well as JoeR and RR's in this thread, even though you and I apparently disagree.

One thing surprised me about your posts was how you seem to take the above statement. That self defense must be supported by reasonable evidence by the defense (prima facie - at first glance, plausible, reasonable on the face of it), and that it's then the prosecution's burden to disprove it.

Reading your posts, I thought initially that you were agreeing with RR about Zimmerman's defense have established prima facie self defense, that it was now up to the prosecution to provide a case more than a reasonable doubt. But I get the impression that you don't think Z's defense has met that burden.

Why isn't Martin being on top of Zimmerman pummeling him, with Zimmerman sustaining the only injuries in the fisticuff part of the fight (broken nose, black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury) enough to establish "prima facie" self defense?

I mean, it's important in this trial to try figuring out the details, like who started the fight, was it reasonable for Zimmerman to fear for his life, etc. But just to establish a reasonable first glance self defense... Geez does someone have to have their skull already split open before they can make a possible claim of self defense, in your opinion?

While I don't know how the known details should be weighed, I hope the jury is taught how to in this case, in the final verdict. (I personally think so far the murder count is a joke, manslaughter in this or a civil trial might be right though I doubt it, and the burden of proof is very much on the prosecution in this case.)

Maybe some people are confusing ordinary self-defense claims with stand-your-ground. Stand-your-ground appears to me, to offer protection to people AFTER it's proven they were justified in using lethal force, to prevent revenge minded people from suing the person into bankruptcy after they were found innocent by self defense. That's why SYG is an affirmative defense, the defendant has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt self defense was justified, to get the protection against lawsuits SYG offers.

The traditional "self defense" claim is not the same as SYG. As long as it's plausible the defendant could have used self-defense, the burden of proof is always on the prosecution. Like practically ALL crimes, the defendant is presumed innocent until guilty, as they should be. (At least one exception, if the IRS comes after you) Zimmerman isn't claiming SYG, he's claiming traditional self defense.

So, OTM, I really don't understand why you quote the standards for self defense, and then appear to think that the burden of proof rests with the defense in this case.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Hey, OTM. Enjoyed reading your posts, as well as JoeR and RR's in this thread, even though you and I apparently disagree.


So, OTM, I really don't understand why you quote the standards for self defense, and then appear to think that the burden of proof rests with the defense in this case.

this is an interesting case. i think everyone here is being "reasonable" in their approach and thoughts but yet we have a split of opinion on the warpath ..


im not a crim def atty, and it appears this has been covered ad nauseum in this thread since you posted .. but after spending 10 seconds i believe what has already been said in here ... the burden is on the defendant to establish a prima facie case of justified self-defense, then the burden swings back to the prosecution to prove beyond a reas doubt that the amount of force used in self defense was unjustified ....

and sufficient evidence to support a prima facie case can come from any where and anyone, it doesnt have to come from the defendant's own mouth or even from the defendant's witnesses . . just as long as the admitted evid at trial supports it . .

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

this is an interesting case. i think everyone here is being "reasonable" in their approach and thoughts but yet we have a split of opinion on the warpath ..


im not a crim def atty, and it appears this has been covered ad nauseum in this thread since you posted .. but after spending 10 seconds i believe what has already been said in here ... the burden is on the defendant to establish a prima facie case of justified self-defense, then the burden swings back to the prosecution to prove beyond a reas doubt that the amount of force used in self defense was unjustified ....

and sufficient evidence to support a prima facie case can come from any where and anyone, it doesnt have to come from the defendant's own mouth or even from the defendant's witnesses . . just as long as the admitted evid at trial supports it . .

Agree with everything you said. I just think that since it's been established that Martin had pinned and was beating Zimmerman up, and there's certainly the possibility that either one started it, the low standard for prima facie self defence has been exceeded by a wide margin. It doesn't prove Zimmerman's innocent, but certainly puts the burden of proof on the prosecution.

I wonder if this trial will be decided by the facts (maybe manslaughter, not murder2), by fear of riots (guilty on something), or something like the Golden Mean Fallacy (manslaughter) with the composition of the jury.