Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by PennSkinsFan

I wouldn't. I like that plan. That's the way the Caps were built. Now, I would only want to go through that plan if Cerrato was not the architect. I am one of those that has NO, not little, but NO confidence in Vinny Cerrato. Not has he provided one shred of legitimacy.

I love the Caps, but really would Redskins fans put up with the teams being absolutely abysmal for several years the way the Caps were before now finally being legit contenders? Probably not, because most people don't care as much about the Caps, and don't realize how awful the team was for a while (overpaid veterans, no depth, etc.) .I'd wager that 4 out of every 5 people think they hired McPhee last year and this was a quick turnaround.

I think there are many people that have decided to gloss over any good moves by VC and only acknowledge them as "dumb luck" and are determined to never give Cerrato any credit no matter what. The thought that a team built by Cerrato could win really bothers them. They'd almost rather they didn't win.

[irish]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I love the Caps, but really would Redskins fans put up with the teams being absolutely abysmal for several years the way the Caps were before now finally being legit contenders? Probably not, because most people don't care as much about the Caps, and don't realize how awful the team was for a while (overpaid veterans, no depth, etc.) .I'd wager that 4 out of every 5 people think they hired McPhee last year and this was a quick turnaround.

I think there are many people that have decided to gloss over any good moves by VC and only acknowledge them as "dumb luck" and are determined to never give Cerrato any credit no matter what. The thought that a team built by Cerrato could win really bothers them. They'd almost rather they didn't win.

While the Skins havent been abysmal they havent been very good either for going on 20 years now and overpaid vets and no depth are Skins trademarks. When a team built by VC wins something let me know but until then it business as usual in Redskins Park.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Hypothetically:

Let's say the 2009 team goes to the playoffs on a first round bye, wins a playoff game, and gets eliminated in the NFC Championship game. In the offseason, a new CBA is agreed to by the players union and the league owners. Campbell gets the franchise tag, but Carlos Rogers signs with the Falcons for 10 million a year. In the preseason, Clinton Portis tears two ligaments in his knee and misses the year. Chris Samuels isn't healthy when the year starts. Stephon Heyer is the de facto starter at LT. Devin Thomas doesn't even make the team. We picked up the options on Carter and Randle El, who are both in decline at this point. Jansen is cut, but there's no one on the line to replace him but Heyer. Because the team finished in the top four teams the year before, we can only sign one player (to replace Rogers) and the market doesn't offer anything we like anyway. Point is: clearly, this is a worse team than the 2009 version (hypotetically).

Only, the team wins 10 games anyway, and the NFC East. Jason Campbell makes the pro-bowl, and Ladell Betts has an improbable 1,200 yd season at age 31 (averging only 3.9 YPC though). The defense gives up a ton of points, but also happened to lead the league in turnovers forced. The Redskins are only +21 in pt. differential, but win the division anyway, thanks to crappy play from Eli Manning and Donovan McNabb, and a total defensive collapse in Dallas.

The team isn't expected to make a big splash in the playoffs, but wins a hard fought game against the upstart 11-win Lions during WC Weekend, and the next week, faces No. 1 seed Green Bay. Green Bay won 14 games in 2010, and is the media darling, but the Redskins win a low scoring game thanks to a complete meltdown by Aaron Rodgers, 4 INTs and a FL. The Championship game is played at FedEx field because the 2nd seed Falcons lost a nailbiter to the 9 win WC 49ers after Mark Sanchez (1:1 INT-TD rate in 2010) gets a game clinching INT dropped by Carlos Rogers. The 49ers really have no business even being in the playoffs, but thanks to back to back road wins, are Washington's opponent in the 2010 NFC Championship game. Washington wins a poorly played ball game 20-11.

Then in SB XLV, Jason Campbell has a banner day, and Norv Turner loses for the first time in his career against a former employer (yes, he's now 8-0 against the Raiders and 2-1 against the Skins). The Redskins win SB 45. And yet, are in much worse shape going forward then they currently appear to be.

That's what I mean by accidentally winning a SB. A non-super bowl champion regresses in skill, but wins a championship the next year anyway.

Wow, the short bus parked for a long time at the Imagination Station for that one!!!

If that happened, we'd all be as giddy as pigs in sh*t so even if we 'accidentally' won a Super Bowl (you forgot to mention that the Chargers were only in the Super Bowl because the Patriots plane was diverted to the island from Lost so they were substituted as the AFC runner up) people would be shouting Hallelujah all year long.

[redsk1]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

What's your point here?

By the way, Vincent Jackson, the late 2nd round pick...had 3 catches his rookie season

My post was in response to someone saying b/c we have drafted JC, LL, CC, Horton, and others that we have a long term plan. I was simply making a point that we have no long term plan. Just cause we drafted some guys here and there doesn't make it a long term plan.

I also made the point that we don't have as much talent as many think we do.

I think you missed my point.

[redsk1]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

At the end of the day, how many people really care if they have a plan or not. People just want results. Cerrato could hold a press conference and say "our plan is to completely gut our team of veterans, start all the young guys, and build a team for long term success" and after a 5-11 season we'd all say Booo!!!

Or he could say "We shelled out a few hundred million for the best Pro Bowlers money can buy, mortgaged our future, but this should work for a year until we have to dismantle the team"and after a Super Bowl win we'd all say Yay!!!!

Yes, it's all about results and our results from our current "no plan" approach haven't been good. When we're a consistent winner I'll change my tune.

I too wouldn't mind a couple bad years if we were building something here. Sometimes what's best for you doesn't make you happy right now.

[redsk1]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

It was pretty obvious that it was w/out research, and I'm thinking it doesn't really prove much. At least I don't understand the point you are trying to prove and how the list you made proves, especially when the list that was written "through B&G glasses" certainly proves that we have used the draft to a certain degree and Ruhskins added a note on each player as to why he is on the list. Maybe you could expand on the one team you listed and say how that disproves Ruhskins point?

Look just trying to make a point to compare a team that has been successful over the last few years consistently who has gotten there by using the draft wisely vs the skins who haven't been ones to use the draft to the full extent and who have been wasteful w/ picks.

Listen, i like our picks over the last few years. I really think Kelly/Davis/Thomas can do some good things for us soon. We've made some good choices.

Just think what the Skins could be w/ a combination of full drafts plus the ability to get a good FA when necessary. We have all of the assets but we don't have a long term plan.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I'm not going to speak for the other mods, but for myself I think

-They do a lot of things well that are overlooked by the team's fans because we all want 16-0 seasons with Lombardi trophies at the end every year

-Sometimes it may seem like I go overboard to defend the FO, but it's sometimes to provide the other perspective to the constant bashing

-I think if people took a step back they would see that a lot of other teams (even the best) make bad decisions and have bad luck. The idea that everyone else is doing it right and we're doing it wrong is naive

-A lot of people here are loving what the Giants did this offseason (so far). But we needed to improve our offensive and defensive lines and we've taken steps to do that. The Giants needed to find a WR and what have they done to address that? It's early and I expect they'll (although they deny it) use their draft picks and/or talent on the defensive line to get that WR. But they haven't yet.

-Are they good at what they do? In many ways yes. We've made several good choices in the draft and free agency. I know the common refrain is "Well how hard is to know to draft Sean Taylor?" Well, a lot of teams have made bad choices in the first round. And I know most have written off Thomas and Kelly. Well, that really just goes back to point #1.

-Could they be better? Of course. I'm not naive to mistakes they've made. The Duckett trade was disatrous and unneccesary, as one example. But we see a Chad Rinehart drafted in the 3rd round not starting and suddenly the thought is OMG, the Redskins suck! They don't know how to even draft a 3rd rounder...yeah, but we drafted Chris Cooley in the 3rd round, we drafted Derrick Dockery in the 3rd round (but we tend to forget that). We see Devin Thomas not playing much his first year and we think This moron was a waste of a pick! But at the same time we want the FO to build through the draft, be patient, and not go for the quick fix all the time

Good post and a fair one. I try to be objective but it seems that they make the same mistakes over and over again. I know they've made some nice moves and when they do I'll be the first one to say so. It's just that the bad ones are so bad that it's almost comical.

[The Goat]

I think the plan exists and sort of is a two-phase concept. We saw phase one within about 48 hrs of FA. Al and Hall were preconceived and then Dock just fell into our laps like a gift from the Almighty... like Hall did last season. I bet that if Dock wasn't cut we'd have signed a different OL guy rather quickly, maybe the kid Willis. As it turned out I think we did the right thing.

Phase two requires patience. We don't have oodles of cash to spend and frankly there isn't a plethora of coveted talent on the market anyway. We'll get Daniels or another serviceable LDE, however I'd prefer big D back. I feel very confident we sign at least one more OL guy in FA; however, it won't surprise me if we wait till after the draft as it's predictable more quality vets will be cut due to their salary and the simple fact teams will have drafted franchise OTs. Where I see uncertainty is at OLB. Contrary to some of the talk I don't think there's a ton of depth and talent at the position in this year's draft. That means we have less to choose from, it also means other teams have less to choose from so they're less likely to part w/ expensive veterans we could sign and get a few productive seasons from. For this reason I think Vinny's smart move is to take an OLB w/ our first pick. Maybe a tweener OLB/DE as GTripp has mentioned.

As to the long-term... pfff, there's no plan. We've got an unproven HC and a QB yet to establish his franchise status. I think JC makes big progress via Zorn's tutelage this season, which obviously helps the offense. But the question mark(s) at WR are undeniable and w/o serious improvement from that group we won't be a contender for anything. Success allows for a plan. Continued struggles probably engender another changeover at HC/QB. As the Zen master says...

[vallin21]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I think the plan exists and sort of is a two-phase concept. We saw phase one within about 48 hrs of FA. Al and Hall were preconceived and then Dock just fell into our laps like a gift from the Almighty... like Hall did last season. I bet that if Dock wasn't cut we'd have signed a different OL guy rather quickly, maybe the kid Willis. As it turned out I think we did the right thing.

Phase two requires patience. We don't have oodles of cash to spend and frankly there isn't a plethora of coveted talent on the market anyway. We'll get Daniels or another serviceable LDE, however I'd prefer big D back. I feel very confident we sign at least one more OL guy in FA; however, it won't surprise me if we wait till after the draft as it's predictable more quality vets will be cut due to their salary and the simple fact teams will have drafted franchise OTs. Where I see uncertainty is at OLB. Contrary to some of the talk I don't think there's a ton of depth and talent at the position in this year's draft. That means we have less to choose from, it also means other teams have less to choose from so they're less likely to part w/ expensive veterans we could sign and get a few productive seasons from. For this reason I think Vinny's smart move is to take an OLB w/ our first pick. Maybe a tweener OLB/DE as GTripp has mentioned.

As to the long-term... pfff, there's no plan. We've got an unproven HC and a QB yet to establish his franchise status. I think JC makes big progress via Zorn's tutelage this season, which obviously helps the offense. But the question mark(s) at WR are undeniable and w/o serious improvement from that group we won't be a contender for anything. Success allows for a plan. Continued struggles probably engender another changeover at HC/QB. As the Zen master says...

All good plans Goat! I hope your right about JC

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I think the plan exists and sort of is a two-phase concept. We saw phase one within about 48 hrs of FA. Al and Hall were preconceived and then Dock just fell into our laps like a gift from the Almighty... like Hall did last season. I bet that if Dock wasn't cut we'd have signed a different OL guy rather quickly, maybe the kid Willis. As it turned out I think we did the right thing.

Phase two requires patience. We don't have oodles of cash to spend and frankly there isn't a plethora of coveted talent on the market anyway. We'll get Daniels or another serviceable LDE, however I'd prefer big D back. I feel very confident we sign at least one more OL guy in FA; however, it won't surprise me if we wait till after the draft as it's predictable more quality vets will be cut due to their salary and the simple fact teams will have drafted franchise OTs. Where I see uncertainty is at OLB. Contrary to some of the talk I don't think there's a ton of depth and talent at the position in this year's draft. That means we have less to choose from, it also means other teams have less to choose from so they're less likely to part w/ expensive veterans we could sign and get a few productive seasons from. For this reason I think Vinny's smart move is to take an OLB w/ our first pick. Maybe a tweener OLB/DE as GTripp has mentioned.

As to the long-term... pfff, there's no plan. We've got an unproven HC and a QB yet to establish his franchise status. I think JC makes big progress via Zorn's tutelage this season, which obviously helps the offense. But the question mark(s) at WR are undeniable and w/o serious improvement from that group we won't be a contender for anything. Success allows for a plan. Continued struggles probably engender another changeover at HC/QB. As the Zen master says...

Excellent post! Everything you wrote makes sense to me.

I only disagree with you about the ability of JC to lead this team. On a physical level I have problems with his slow release, his inaccuracy, and the flat trajectory on his deep passes. On a mental level, I don't think that he usually makes decisions quickly enough. I also question his standing as an team leader. I don't see him transmitting his passion for winning to his teammates. Lastly, he just doesn't make enough big plays. Sometimes a QB needs to make a play at a critical time of the game whether or not defenders are draped all over him.

That said, I'd like JC to prove me and the rest of his doubters wrong. That would be wonderful! Nevertheless, until JC steps up to the next level or the Redskins find the right QB to lead them they're not going to be a dominant team.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

Excellent post! Everything you wrote makes sense to me.

I only disagree with you about the ability of JC to lead this team. On a physical level I have problems with his slow release, his inaccuracy, and the flat trajectory on his deep passes. On a mental level, I don't think that he usually makes decisions quickly enough. I also question his standing as an team leader. I don't see him transmitting his passion for winning to his teammates. Lastly, he just doesn't make enough big plays. Sometimes a QB needs to make a play at a critical time of the game whether or not defenders are draped all over him.

That said, I'd like JC to prove me and the rest of his doubters wrong. That would be wonderful! Nevertheless, until JC steps up to the next level or the Redskins find the right QB to lead them they're not going to be a dominant team.

It really doesn't matter what we think, his teammates see him as a leader so that's all that matters.

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

It really doesn't matter what we think, his teammates see him as a leader so that's all that matters.

No, the number of W's is all that matters. I'll make you a deal: since I'm no QB expert, I'll try to hold my comments on JC and we can all judge his effectiveness during the upcoming season by the best measure I can think of - wins.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

No, the number of W's is all that matters. I'll make you a deal: since I'm no QB expert, I'll try to hold my comments on JC and we can all judge his effectiveness during the upcoming season by the best measure I can think of - wins.

So if wins is all that matters why did you bring up the leadership angle in the first place?

[vallin21]

I agree with Matty, all that matters is that we go to the Superbowl, and whether JC produces or not is irrelevent.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I think the plan exists and sort of is a two-phase concept. We saw phase one within about 48 hrs of FA. Al and Hall were preconceived and then Dock just fell into our laps like a gift from the Almighty... like Hall did last season. I bet that if Dock wasn't cut we'd have signed a different OL guy rather quickly, maybe the kid Willis. As it turned out I think we did the right thing.

Phase two requires patience. We don't have oodles of cash to spend and frankly there isn't a plethora of coveted talent on the market anyway. We'll get Daniels or another serviceable LDE, however I'd prefer big D back. I feel very confident we sign at least one more OL guy in FA; however, it won't surprise me if we wait till after the draft as it's predictable more quality vets will be cut due to their salary and the simple fact teams will have drafted franchise OTs. Where I see uncertainty is at OLB. Contrary to some of the talk I don't think there's a ton of depth and talent at the position in this year's draft. That means we have less to choose from, it also means other teams have less to choose from so they're less likely to part w/ expensive veterans we could sign and get a few productive seasons from. For this reason I think Vinny's smart move is to take an OLB w/ our first pick. Maybe a tweener OLB/DE as GTripp has mentioned.

As to the long-term... pfff, there's no plan. We've got an unproven HC and a QB yet to establish his franchise status. I think JC makes big progress via Zorn's tutelage this season, which obviously helps the offense. But the question mark(s) at WR are undeniable and w/o serious improvement from that group we won't be a contender for anything. Success allows for a plan. Continued struggles probably engender another changeover at HC/QB. As the Zen master says...

I agree with the short term plan portion, and also think Vinny and crew probably, hopefully, have looked at what veterans have roster bonuses due and are targeting one or two players for our needs. Like Goat pointed out, after the draft several teams will be re-evaluating their rosters, and hopefully, in addition to whoever we draft, we will fill out our team.
I think the long-term plan is with Zorn. DS has tried bringing in big name/high profile coaches, with little to no success, he brought back JG - still my favorite move under his ownership, and now he has a young coach, and I believe that unless Zorn just cracks, DS will do everything possible to develop this guy and therefore the team into a SB caliber contender.

Plainly stated, the Long Term plan is to develop a newb HC, understanding he is not a "legend" and will make mistakes, and let this team grow and develop under his leadership.

I doubt most fans really want to hear about long term plans: look at the recent threads "when do we cut MK & DT" in another the author of the OP of this thread who wants a plan, also wants to bring in a WR (Holt) who is in his 13th year and noticibly declining. I certainly have actions I would have liked to seen happen (Hunter, Hixon) but VC and DS, look at all the options coming up and don't always go with the fan favorite of the day. That IS a good thing.
So yes I believe there is a plan, both short and long term, I am also certain many of the choices will irritate and confuse me, because I am not privy to the details of those plans.