Trayvon Martin Case

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

And comments like Obama's "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon."

Anybody else in favor of trial by professional jurists? Or robots? So people's emotions don't play a role in this?

Of course emotions are involved.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

anybody else in favor of trial by professional jurists? Or robots? So people's emotions don't play a role in this?

It would be a much safer world if computers ran the judicial system jury and sentencing. No human bias.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

It would be a much safer world if computers ran the judicial system jury and sentencing. No human bias.

because human compassion, bias, idiosyncrasies have no place in taking note of circumstances surrounding a human action/inaction.

Let's here it for I, Robot jurists (I wonder how sentencing a man to 15 years to life fits in the 3 laws)...

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

It would be a much safer world if computers ran the judicial system jury and sentencing. No human bias.

No. It wouldn't. Law is a human creation intended to be for humans and adjudicated by humans. Inherent in its creation is the use and consideration of human emotions (bias, mercy, prejudice, compassion, etc.). To then remove emotion from the application of such a creation is to create a systematic flaw. The resultant and inherently inhuman application of such laws would lead to attrocities and the "logical/rational" choices in which a mechanical being would make no attempt to save a drowning child. For good or ill, the law is our creation. It is meant for us and for us to apply it. I for one, chose not to surrender the adjudication of my actions to a highly sophisticated calculator. Accordingly, I will ask no one else to either.

As with calumny, the way to deal with demagougery is to expose it as such. Here, just read through the past posts to see how the media has manipulated emotions.

@12 - An unarmed teen was shot and killed. You're familiar with Baltimore - you know that happens a lot in our gritty little city. Is your emotional outrage equally obvious for the victims? Or is it reserved for media driven side shows of race baiting (Before the Martin case, had you ever heard of a "white latino"?)

Zimmerman lied about his income and passport. He did so as part of a bond hearing. Normally such testimony is given under oath. Regardless, the misrepresentations were made in open court with the intent for the judge to rely on them. This will come out at trial and I am sure it will do no benefit to Zimmerman.

Again, had this not been so racially charged at its inception - would we be hearing about it? How many folks in Baltimore City Circuit Court lie daily about the facts surrounding their crime. Yet, somehow, shockingly, they fail to make national news.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

No. It wouldn't. Law is a human creation intended to be for humans and adjudicated by humans.

So are computers.

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Inherent in its creation is the use and consideration of human emotions (bias, mercy, prejudice, compassion, etc.). To then remove emotion from the application of such a creation is to create a systematic flaw.

I'm not seeing any evidence of the removal of human flaws creating a more flawed system.

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

The resultant and inherent inhuman application of such laws would lead to attrocities and the "logical/rational" choices in which a mechanical being would make no attempt to save a drowning child.

WTF?!?!??! Where are you getting this from?

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

For good or ill, the law is our creation. It is meant for us and for us to apply it. I for one, chose not to surrender the adjudication of my actions to a highly sophisticated calculator. Accordingly, I will ask no one else to either.

It's called progress.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

It would be a much safer world if computers ran the judicial system jury and sentencing. No human bias.

Things would certainly be fairer. Eliminate prejudice against minorities and bias against anybody in jury deliberations. Prevent media hype like MSNBC's campaign against Zimmerman early, and John Edward's charisma in his trial, from having an effect on the verdict.

HOW we could implement a change, I don't know. But I'm convinced jury by only our peers is basically flawed. Because people can be very stupid at times.

Our society is built partly on the idea that majority rule can determine the best course of action overall. But in small groups, it seems like the opposite is true. And as far as individuals go, like George Carlin said: Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!

I think judging whether to take a person's freedom away, let alone their life, should be done by people far above average intelligence. I think we'd need an AI a lot "smarter" than say IBM's Watson, to handle a court verdict, but at least we could eliminate some stupidity that way.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

An unarmed teen carrying tea and skittles, on his way home, got shot in the chest and people are too emotionally charged?

If your so concerned about shootings why not bring up Chicago shootings and the 10 dead in just one weekend? There have been over 851 shootings there but no one seems to care about that. Just this one case.

This Memorial Day weekend turned into a bloody massacre in Chicago. There were a total of 40 reported shootings, which left 10 people dead and a dozen injured.
STORY: Got 'Em! Naked Man Who Chewed Off Another Man's Face Identified!
A man was shot dead near a holiday party in the South Shore neighborhood late Monday night, while an unidentified woman was found shot to death in an abandoned building.
The recent homicides have doubled as compared to Memorial Day 2011 and according to homicide records, there have been at least 200 homicides so far this year compared with 134 during the same period in 2011. That's a 49.25 percent increase over the last year.
On Tuesday, Mayor Rahm Emanuel and Police Superintendent Garry McCarthy are expected to hold a news conference where they discuss two new crime reduction strategies as shootings are up nearly 14 percent over last year.
There have been 851 shootings so far in 2012 compared with 747 during the same period in 2011, police data showed.
As reported by the Chicago Tribune:


Read more: 40 Shot, 10 Dead And Dozens Injured Over Memorial Day Weekend In Chicago (DETAILS) | Global Grind

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by firstdown

If your so concerned about shootings why not bring up Chicago shootings and the 10 dead in just one weekend? There have been over 851 shootings there but no one seems to care about that.

<SNIP>

I'd hazard a guess that the Chicago situation doesn't provide the racially charged narrative so useful to the current Administration.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by firstdown

If your so concerned about shootings why not bring up Chicago shootings and the 10 dead in just one weekend? There have been over 851 shootings there but no one seems to care about that. Just this one case.

This Memorial Day weekend turned into a bloody massacre in Chicago. There were a total of 40 reported shootings, which left 10 people dead and a dozen injured.
STORY: Got 'Em! Naked Man Who Chewed Off Another Man's Face Identified!
A man was shot dead near a holiday party in the South Shore neighborhood late Monday night, while an unidentified woman was found shot to death in an abandoned building.
The recent homicides have doubled as compared to Memorial Day 2011 and according to homicide records, there have been at least 200 homicides so far this year compared with 134 during the same period in 2011. That's a 49.25 percent increase over the last year.
On Tuesday, Mayor Rahm Emanuel and Police Superintendent Garry McCarthy are expected to hold a news conference where they discuss two new crime reduction strategies as shootings are up nearly 14 percent over last year.
There have been 851 shootings so far in 2012 compared with 747 during the same period in 2011, police data showed.
As reported by the Chicago Tribune:


Read more: 40 Shot, 10 Dead And Dozens Injured Over Memorial Day Weekend In Chicago (DETAILS) | Global Grind

Who says I'm not concerned about the Chicago shootings? And in case you didn't notice, this is the Trayvon Martin thread? #applesandoranges

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Who says I'm not concerned about the Chicago shootings? And in case you didn't notice, this is the Trayvon Martin thread? #applesandoranges

See, here's the thing -- through your posts, I see your emotionalism in this case tied up in the race of the victim rather than the generic concern about the death of an unarmed teen. Unarmed teens are shot and killed multiple times a month in Baltimore. Did you wear a hoodie for them? Did you rally for them? Have you notified the Mayor and members of the city counsel of your outrage through a simple phone call or letter?

If you do feel the same outrage at these killings, and you may well, I sincerely apologize. What I see from your postings, however, is concern for a victim wrapped in race rather than outrage over the death of a teen due to unnecessary violence - regardless of race.

This case is like many other murders throughout the nation. Mistaken identity, over-zealous gunman, etc. It is not, and has never been, worthy of the national news and only remains so b/c of the race based coverage it received early on.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

See, here's the thing -- through your posts, I see your emotionalism in this case tied up in the race of the victim rather than the generic concern about the death of an unarmed teen. Unarmed teens are shot and killed multiple times a month in Baltimore. Did you wear a hoodie for them? Did you rally for them? Have you notified the Mayor and members of the city counsel of your outrage through a simple phone call or letter?

If you do feel the same outrage at these killings, and you may well, I sincerely apologize. What I see from your postings, however, is concern for a victim wrapped in race rather than outrage over the death of a teen due to unnecessary violence - regardless of race.

This case is like many other murders throughout the nation. Mistaken identity, over-zealous gunman, etc. It is not, and has never been, worthy of the national news and only remains so b/c of the race based coverage it received early on.

Don't parse my posts and interpret what you think they mean or what I'm trying to say.

Who are you to say this case isn't worthy of national news? Tell that to the parents of Trayvon Martin who's killer roamed free for over a month before charges were even brought. Zimmerman, in likelihood, would still be walking the streets today had it not been for the outrage of the Sanford community.

[CRedskinsRule]

quote from I, Robot synopsis:

Apparently [Will Smith's character] was in a bad car accident a few years before. He was driving on a bridge and the car next to him smashed into him which caused the two cars to fall off the bridge into water. There was a young girl in the other car. A robot swam under water and pulled Spooner out but left the girl. The little girl drowned. The robot computed a 45% chance of his survival and only an 11% survival of the girl. Its logic chose him. A human, Del says, would never have made that choice.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

quote from I, Robot synopsis:

I'm not seeing the connection between sci-fi and an acceptable alternative to the current system.

[12thMan]

@Joe, I'm a native Washingtonian from the '80s. Grew up in N.E. when D.C. was the murder capital of the nation. Many that I grew up with were either murdered, committed murder, or incarcerated. I've seen urban violence up close and too f*cking personal.

I'm not sure what little box you think I'm in regarding Trayvon Martin or how I'm supposed to feel, but my outrage is mine and mine alone. I'm not trying to prove anything here.

[12thMan]

@Firstdown. I posted this two months in response to a question posed by 56Fan. I have no desire to delve into the differences between the Trayvon Martin murder and black on black, but this post somewhat captures it.


56Fan, you seem to be conflating civil rights and the rule of law with the plight of the black community at large. I'm neither a Sharpton supporter or apologist, but his role if you will, in the black community is - he speaks to civil rights issues. Admittedly while there is a civil rights component at play, black on black crime in and of itself is not a civil rights issue. It is, however, a gravely important one that needs to be addressed for a number of reasons.

First and foremost, there's an economic imperative as well as the achievement gap that needs to be bridged. There's an inextricable link between urban poverty, black on black crime, and education. It's one thing to march and "demand" that black men stop killing black men, it's another to start a conversation about the achievement gap in the black community or job programs to ensure employment post-prison. In other words initiatives and policies that directly impact urban poverty, particularly education, which tends to curb violent behavior, drug abuse, early drop out rates, and teen pregnancy. So you see, the murder of Trayvon Martin and black on black crime, are two distinctly different conversations that must be approached and unpacked differently in order to understand them and remedy the problem.

Now if you arguing that Al Sharpton, as a prominent leader in the black community, should broaden his scope and speak to some of the ills that have plagued the black community for decades, well he's actually doing that. It may come as a surprise to some that Al Sharpton and Newt Gingrich have teamed up with the President and the Secretary of Education on education issues.

Arne Duncan, Al Sharpton, and Newt Gingrich Join Forces - On Education (usnews.com)

Al Sharpton and Gingrich have appeared on Meet The Press and other venues across the country to champion initiatives that address education in minority communities. This is where it starts. You can't make some angry teen who is feeling disenfranchised put down his gun, but you can build up the schools around him so that the next kid named Trayvon won't resort to violence and drugs, but sees education as his ticket out of the hood.

Newt Gingrich and Al Sharpton team up to rally for education on tour - NY Daily News