Marching Orders... Interesting Points

[Daseal]

Irish, explain yourself? Ever since Gibbs left (granted it's a small sample) we went after a few select FAs (Fletcher, Hall) both of which worked out brilliantly, we traded down in the draft to stock pile picks, and we made some good decisions. With the exception of Jason Taylor, I really like what the FO did this offseason. Even Jason Taylor doesn't upset me, I think we have a different tune if his calf wasn't destroyed early in the year.

Yes, our WR's haven't produced. Kelly was by far the most polished product, and he was suffering with injuries since before the season began. Devin Thomas was basically a one year wonder. He has all the physical pieces in place, but he needs to learn the game before becoming an integral part of the offense. Everyone here knows it takes most receivers a long time to develop. According to what I've been hearing on NFL radio, besides QB, WR is one of the hardest transitions in the NFL.

[irish]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Irish, explain yourself? Ever since Gibbs left (granted it's a small sample) we went after a few select FAs (Fletcher, Hall) both of which worked out brilliantly, we traded down in the draft to stock pile picks, and we made some good decisions. With the exception of Jason Taylor, I really like what the FO did this offseason. Even Jason Taylor doesn't upset me, I think we have a different tune if his calf wasn't destroyed early in the year.

Yes, our WR's haven't produced. Kelly was by far the most polished product, and he was suffering with injuries since before the season began. Devin Thomas was basically a one year wonder. He has all the physical pieces in place, but he needs to learn the game before becoming an integral part of the offense. Everyone here knows it takes most receivers a long time to develop. According to what I've been hearing on NFL radio, besides QB, WR is one of the hardest transitions in the NFL.

I agree the Skins few FA picks worked out but what did it really get them? IMO, not much as the Skins ended up on the outside again. The teams that know how to do it bring in one or 2 FAs as the last piece of the puzzle. The Skins arent that close yet and they brought in more than that.

Only the Skins would have used their picks last year for 2 WRs and a TE. When the Skins do draft it seems as if they dont have a plan.

For better or worse this owner spends enough $ so that the Skins are never really bad enough to get a #1 or 2 pick. Unfortunately that means they are stuck in this 7-9 to 9-7 range that if all the lucky stars line up they get in the playoffs otherwise they are out and drafting mid pack.

[Daseal]

Irish, currently we don't have a #1 WR right now. People like to build Moss up, but he's mediocre. He's a #2, ARE is a #3. I believe the skins went best available in the spot. And I think they did fine with the three picks. I think Fred Davis could be very, very good. I'm also not giving up on our now 2nd year WRs.

Granted, I think this team should get broken apart and rebuilt -- but Redskins fans can't handle it. They're already screaming why our rookie WRs aren't in pro bowls. The skins were competitive the first part of the season -- we were singing Vinny's praises for a great draft and being responsible. Now after the season, it's all of a sudden his fault? I just don't see it. I think Vinny is doing just fine. The guy can spot talent pretty well, he's gotten some very good late picks for us that have contributed.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Irish, currently we don't have a #1 WR right now. People like to build Moss up, but he's mediocre. He's a #2, ARE is a #3. I believe the skins went best available in the spot. And I think they did fine with the three picks. I think Fred Davis could be very, very good. I'm also not giving up on our now 2nd year WRs.

Granted, I think this team should get broken apart and rebuilt -- but Redskins fans can't handle it. They're already screaming why our rookie WRs aren't in pro bowls. The skins were competitive the first part of the season -- we were singing Vinny's praises for a great draft and being responsible. Now after the season, it's all of a sudden his fault? I just don't see it. I think Vinny is doing just fine. The guy can spot talent pretty well, he's gotten some very good late picks for us that have contributed.

That's pretty much the problem. That, and the fact that our owner is also a lifelong fan who sometimes can't separate his passion from his priorities. We need to be willing to be bad, really bad. But...well you see the gameday threads you know how people react.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

That's pretty much the problem. That, and the fact that our owner is also a lifelong fan who sometimes can't separate his passion from his priorities. We need to be willing to be bad, really bad. But...well you see the gameday threads you know how people react.

After last seasons, i think the fans can put up with re-building. The team played so painfully bad against the 49ers, Bengals, Lions and Seattle to name a few.
I would rather deal with bad play knowing we are building for the future with young promising players, than deal with bad play and see high priced old timers play like Jansen, Smoot, Fabini, Kendall, Phillip Daniels, Jason Taylor.....etc trot out on to the field each Sunday.
We are spinning our wheels with the way yhte team has been run. It is time for something new.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

After last seasons, i think the fans can put up with re-building. The team played so painfully bad against the 49ers, Bengals, Lions and Seattle to name a few.
I would rather deal with bad play knowing we are building for the future with young promising players, than deal with bad play and see high priced old timers play like Jansen, Smoot, Fabini, Kendall, Phillip Daniels, Jason Taylor.....etc trot out on to the field each Sunday.
We are spinning our wheels with the way yhte team has been run. It is time for something new.

I'm curious about this...whether or not fans can put up with rebuilding...or the ownership. I posted something related to this in another thread, when someone brought up the Ravens, Dolphins, and Atlanta. I mentioned that all of those team had losing seasons while rebuilding, and actually acquired some good players through high draft picks they got due to those losing seasons.

I think the fanbase is too impatient. I laugh when people mention the cliche "build through the draft" as an option instead of signing a free agent. i'm not sure these people know that building through the draft typically means getting a lot of young players and not winning many games while they develop. I know this doesn't happen ALL the time, but if you rebuild, you have to be ready to face a losing season.

[irish]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I'm curious about this...whether or not fans can put up with rebuilding...or the ownership. I posted something related to this in another thread, when someone brought up the Ravens, Dolphins, and Atlanta. I mentioned that all of those team had losing seasons while rebuilding, and actually acquired some good players through high draft picks they got due to those losing seasons.

I think the fanbase is too impatient. I laugh when people mention the cliche "build through the draft" as an option instead of signing a free agent. i'm not sure these people know that building through the draft typically means getting a lot of young players and not winning many games while they develop. I know this doesn't happen ALL the time, but if you rebuild, you have to be ready to face a losing season.

The part that would make any Skins rebuilding process more painful and decrease fan patience is that the Skins havent really had any success that they are rebuilding from. It seems like they have been in a rebuilding mode since the mid 1990s by always trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I'm curious about this...whether or not fans can put up with rebuilding...or the ownership. I posted something related to this in another thread, when someone brought up the Ravens, Dolphins, and Atlanta. I mentioned that all of those team had losing seasons while rebuilding, and actually acquired some good players through high draft picks they got due to those losing seasons.

I think the fanbase is too impatient. I laugh when people mention the cliche "build through the draft" as an option instead of signing a free agent. i'm not sure these people know that building through the draft typically means getting a lot of young players and not winning many games while they develop. I know this doesn't happen ALL the time, but if you rebuild, you have to be ready to face a losing season.

I agree with you that if we re-build, in the short team we will lose more than we are now. But you talk like we have been consistantly a winning team. We have not. In the last 16 years we have not had a single season that we have won more than 10 games. In the last 16 years we have only had 5 seasons that we have been over .500.
Take a look below, we have not been a winning team.

1993 4 - 12
1994 3 - 13
1995 6 - 10
1996 9 - 7
1997 8 - 7 - 1
1998 6 - 10
1999 10- 6
2000 8 - 8
2001 8 - 8
2002 7 - 9
2003 5 - 11
2004 6 - 10
2005 10 - 6
2006 5 - 11
2007 9 - 7
2008 8 - 8

[irish]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Irish, currently we don't have a #1 WR right now. People like to build Moss up, but he's mediocre. He's a #2, ARE is a #3. I believe the skins went best available in the spot. And I think they did fine with the three picks. I think Fred Davis could be very, very good. I'm also not giving up on our now 2nd year WRs.

Granted, I think this team should get broken apart and rebuilt -- but Redskins fans can't handle it. They're already screaming why our rookie WRs aren't in pro bowls. The skins were competitive the first part of the season -- we were singing Vinny's praises for a great draft and being responsible. Now after the season, it's all of a sudden his fault? I just don't see it. I think Vinny is doing just fine. The guy can spot talent pretty well, he's gotten some very good late picks for us that have contributed.

The team didnt need WRs and a TE. It needed and still needs O-line and D-line help.

I agree Redskins fans cant handle the team being broken apart, especially since it was touted how well off Gibbs left this team when in fact he didnt, and thats because it always appears the Skins are close to being a contender but thats because of what I said in an earlier post about the owner spending $. Its not all Vinny's fault, but unfortunately the organization is broken from top to bottom and I dont see it being fixed any time soon.

Lots of teams are competitive early in the season (just ask Buffalo) but the really good ones win in Nov & Dec and then on into Jan. This team doesnt win in Nov & Dec (forget about Jan) and thats what tells me it isnt that good.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Irish, currently we don't have a #1 WR right now. People like to build Moss up, but he's mediocre. He's a #2, ARE is a #3. I believe the skins went best available in the spot. And I think they did fine with the three picks. I think Fred Davis could be very, very good. I'm also not giving up on our now 2nd year WRs.

Granted, I think this team should get broken apart and rebuilt -- but Redskins fans can't handle it. They're already screaming why our rookie WRs aren't in pro bowls. The skins were competitive the first part of the season -- we were singing Vinny's praises for a great draft and being responsible. Now after the season, it's all of a sudden his fault? I just don't see it. I think Vinny is doing just fine. The guy can spot talent pretty well, he's gotten some very good late picks for us that have contributed.

I can handle a rebuild...and as a season ticket holder I will keep paying for as long as it takes. My only problem is that I don't trust Vinny to do the rebuilding. He is the only constant in Snyders 10+ years here...I don't think everything is his fault...but if I am going to endure a rebuilding project I want someone with a proven track record at the controls. We need a fresh start and it's never a fresh start as long as we keep repackaging Vinny in one role or another.

[MTK]

A truly broken organization to me are the Lions, or the Raiders.

The Redskins are a team that always seems to be stuck somewhere in mediocrity. Not horrible, not great. If they stay focused on the draft and continue to use free agency as a supplement to building the roster I really believe they will break through in the next few years. And having the same head coach/system in place for multiple years would be a great benefit as well.

[irish]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

A truly broken organization to me are the Lions, or the Raiders.

The Redskins are a team that always seems to be stuck somewhere in mediocrity. Not horrible, not great. If they stay focused on the draft and continue to use free agency as a supplement to building the roster I really believe they will break through in the next few years. And having the same head coach/system in place for multiple years would be a great benefit as well.

I agree those are the truely broken organizations unfortunately the Skins are closer to them than they are to Pgh, NE.

I also agree that the coaching carosel needs to stop. That's another huge problem.

Like I have said, the Skins are stuck in mediocrity because the owner spends enough $ to keep them from ever being horrible (and get them a real impact franchise player) so it appears they are closer than they really are. This team is nowhere close to a championship contender.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

A truly broken organization to me are the Lions, or the Raiders.

The Redskins are a team that always seems to be stuck somewhere in mediocrity. Not horrible, not great. If they stay focused on the draft and continue to use free agency as a supplement to building the roster I really believe they will break through in the next few years. And having the same head coach/system in place for multiple years would be a great benefit as well.

We are the oldest team in the NFl and we have one of the highest payrolls. We have to stop bringing in old FA's. We have to stop renegotiating contracts of old players just to get below the cap, get rid of the old over paid players. Stop trading high draft picks for 34 year old FA's. But we always revert back to these bad practices because it is less painful. We build this team to win today, not to win for tomorrow.

[SouperMeister]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

We are the oldest team in the NFl and we have one of the highest payrolls. We have to stop bringing in old FA's. We have to stop renegotiating contracts of old players just to get below the cap, get rid of the old over paid players. Stop trading high draft picks for 34 year old FA's. But we always revert back to these bad practices because it is less painful. We build this team to win today, not to win for tomorrow.

Both Baltimore and Tennessee had painful rebuilding years after their Super Bowl appearances in 2000 and 1999, respectively. I would rather suffer through a 3 win season if it meant clearing the books of overpaid vets, while laying a strong young foundation with an extended window to compete for a championship. With Snyderato's current formula, the best we can ever hope for is a 9-10 win season that results in a wild card, and an early exit from the post-season. I don't see a long range plan for success when we continually trade draft picks for aging vets, as if we are only a player away from championship caliber. Snyder is delusional in his belief that we are on the cusp of anything great with this formula.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by SouperMeister

Both Baltimore and Tennessee had painful rebuilding years after their Super Bowl appearances in 2000 and 1999, respectively. I would rather suffer through a 3 win season if it meant clearing the books of overpaid vets, while laying a strong young foundation with an extended window to compete for a championship. With Snyderato's current formula, the best we can ever hope for is a 9-10 win season that results in a wild card, and an early exit from the post-season. I don't see a long range plan for success when we trade for aging vets as if we are a player away from championship caliber. Snyder is delusional in his belief that we are on the cusp of anything great.

I agree with you 100% here. There's no pain-free way to turn this franchise around. Snyder has done everything he can to avoid truly fixing this team. instead he continues to put bandaids on a wound when a heart transplant is needed, condemning us to eternal mediocrity.

We need to get rid of every veteran who's play is declining if they are "cutable." Due to salary cap ramifications, guys like Jon Jansen, Randy Thomas, and Clinton Portis are uncutable. Guys like Springs, Griffin, Daniels, Washington, Rabach, and Taylor are.

Now, if we can't resign Hall and/or decide to trade Rogers, arguments could be made for keeping Springs another year... but not if it prevents us from signing someone who could help this team in the long-term. We need to start building for the future, and not just the next year. Unfortunately, I think we arent going to start bulding until next year. in all likelyhood, Zorn and possibly Cerrato, will be gone after this season and the new regime will be the one most likely to commit to the big picture - If Snyder could give someone like Cowher or Holmgren total control, it would satisfy his desire for a big name and they would have enough "clout" to ensure Snyder gave them atleast 3 years. With that type of security, a guy like Cowher or Holmgren could afford to make temporary sacrifices with the goal of having a good, young, rising team ready by the 3rd year.