Putting the Redskins in Perspective

[Drift Reality]

I think that generally speaking, this forum is far less extremist than some of the other fan forums that are out there and I attribute this to our great moderators and participants. I don't frequently chime in unless I have something to say and I hope some people find this to be a productive contribution.

I am seeing a lot of threads focused on specific areas where the Redskins need to improve. I'd like to just add my two cents on this.

I'll preface this by saying the Redskins have just lost to two teams that have top-tier talent in their defensive front sevens. Throughout the majority of the season, the Redskins have performed well and I think some of this has to do with relative unfamiliarity with Zorn as a playcaller (I believe the league has caught up to him) but a lot to do with pretty good execution throughout the season up until the past two weeks.

I think many of the suggestions herein on what troubles the Redskins are good however I believe that the single most troubling aspect of the last two games is their lack of top-tier talent in their offensive line and defensive front seven.

This is resulting in the Redskins not being able to protect the Quarterback when they face a top-tier front-seven as well as not being able to create pressure from their front seven when the opposing team has a top-tier offensive line. So in cases like the Steelers and Cowboys - two teams with superior talent in the trenches - we are going to have serious problems unless our skill players make significant plays (which they did not do).

However I do not think that strategically, you can rely on players to make extraordinary plays week in and week out. Over the course of a season, successful teams have a tendency to be built strong in the trenches and this is what allows them to deal with adversity and injury throughout the season.

My opinion is that we aren't built deep and strong in the trenches and until this becomes the focus of our draft we will not be able to match the physicality of teams like the Steelers or Giants.

Furthermore, the approach of bringing in talented players in the trenches who are beyond their prime simply isn't sustainable in my opinion. You need to develop young talent in these units, which is something I can't believe that our management team still fails to understand.

At any rate, curious to see what others have to say about this.

[djnemo65]

I agree with you, even though I think this has been more than adequately suggested in other threads.

[GTripp0012]

This is all very correct. Honestly, Campbell's play seems to be more related to the amount of hits hes taking and the health of the starting receivers than it does to the offensive line, which has been pretty consistently bad, and especially so in the last oh, 6 games.

Just because the OL sucks doesn't necessarily Campbell is taking many hits. It does have to do with the front, I think. We're having trouble with 5 man rushes. Traditionally, the 5 man rush is an awful strategy because the offense will generally get it picked up anyway, and you're taking a player out of coverage and giving the Quarterback more options. However, 5 man rushes have killed the Redskins because 1) we're not picking it up, and 2) the receivers are not getting open against 6 man backfields. We need to find a way to pick up that five man rush and get some people open down the field.

Or throw screens against it. Zorn doesn't throw enough screens for as bad as we are up front.

[GTripp0012]

One more word on those 5 man rushes: a hat on a hat is supposed to be a win for the offense. But in pass protection for the Redskins, it just isn't. With three guys on our offensive line, a one on one with a guy with any pass rushing acuity is a mismatch.

Throw some screens, Jim.

[steveo395]

I completely agree with you. You need to build a team from the inside out. The lines need to be focused on first, and this has been mostly ignored in the draft. Our 2009 first round pick needs to be an offensive lineman.

Look at the Titans. They are a bunch of nobodys and they are 10-0 because their offensive and defensive lines are dominant.

[53Fan]

I might as well put my 2 cents in now because at this point I completely agree with everything thats been said so far. Great point by steveo about the Titans. That team proves how important the lines are. And GTripp is right on about picking up the 5 man rush and finding ways to get our receivers open. We need to address the lines ABSOLUTELY during the draft. But as Tripp is saying, there are things that need to be corrected NOW, and can be.

[TheSmurfs22]

I think we got spoiled when we came out of the gates with the record we had. The growing pains have set in. I remember back in the spring and summer many of us said we would be happy with a 8-8 record.

One thing I do think we need to work on is adding more youth to our O-line.

[The Goat]

Great post(s). All championship teams have great lines and no Superbowl made that more clear than '07, in which a flashy team w/ tons of talent got dominated by a superior trench team. I only have two quick points: 1) Pitt does not have a superior o-line this season, which is the main reason I do not believe it is on the level of Tennessee or NY. We lost to Pitt because our offense has utterly collapsed and the defense got surprised on a few plays, but not because the Pitt o-line dominated our defense. 2) What Drift said about acquiring/keeping aging talent on the line is the real truth... and I think it says a lot about our FO. Where's the long term strategy?

[SmootSmack]

It's not like we don't have solid young linemen that have developed (will develop) into NFL starters-Golston, Montgomery, Heyer, Evans, hopefully Rinehart, Geisinger, and Jackson/Wilson in the not so distant future.

But I guess the concern is that we're not spending high draft picks on the line?

[sportscurmudgeon]

SmootSmack:

I think that the the apprehension here is that the young players you cite are good and solid OL/DL, but none have shown that they can/will be dominant players.

The defensive tackles on the squad are OK, but the last one the Skins had that was "special" was probably Dave Butz. That was long ago.

On the OL there are competent guys but no dominant ones. There is no one there who threatens to erase the memory of a Russ Grimm or a Joe Jacoby or a Jim Lachey. At one point, the Redskins had all three of those guys on the same team; now it would be spectacular if they had just one - - or one in the making.

Notice, I don't say it is necessary to spend high draft picks to get these kinds of guys because I know that Jacoby was an UFA and Grimm was a third(?) round pick. But it would be nice to see the Skins use a draft pick to obtain a really top-shelf offensive lineman and defensive lineman sometime in the very near future. Maybe that means drafting one in Round 1; maybe it means the scouts have to find a real gem in the later rounds. But the Skins need one stud DT and one - preferably two - stud offensive lineman pretty quickly.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

SmootSmack:

I think that the the apprehension here is that the young players you cite are good and solid OL/DL, but none have shown that they can/will be dominant players.

The defensive tackles on the squad are OK, but the last one the Skins had that was "special" was probably Dave Butz. That was long ago.

On the OL there are competent guys but no dominant ones. There is no one there who threatens to erase the memory of a Russ Grimm or a Joe Jacoby or a Jim Lachey. At one point, the Redskins had all three of those guys on the same team; now it would be spectacular if they had just one - - or one in the making.

Notice, I don't say it is necessary to spend high draft picks to get these kinds of guys because I know that Jacoby was an UFA and Grimm was a third(?) round pick. But it would be nice to see the Skins use a draft pick to obtain a really top-shelf offensive lineman and defensive lineman sometime in the very near future. Maybe that means drafting one in Round 1; maybe it means the scouts have to find a real gem in the later rounds. But the Skins need one stud DT and one - preferably two - stud offensive lineman pretty quickly.

Fantastic post.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

It's not like we don't have solid young linemen that have developed (will develop) into NFL starters-Golston, Montgomery, Heyer, Evans, hopefully Rinehart, Geisinger, and Jackson/Wilson in the not so distant future.

But I guess the concern is that we're not spending high draft picks on the line?

Well, there's nothing young about Evans. He's 29 and currently in his prime. Still, I think we have to find a way to get him an extension. He's a truly great player that Gibbs uncovered and hid behind Daniels. But this season appears to be his career year.

Montgomery, I think, has much more value to a 3-4 team as a dominating, penetrating nose tackle in the mold of Shaun Rogers, Vince Wilfork, or Kris Jenkins. As long as we have him though, we're only going to get Kris Jenkins from Carolina or Shaun Rogers from Detroit. It's not a scheme that fits him very well, and if we can get the going rate for a player like him (a second rounder, or a third and a fifth, or a third and a young player) I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Golston will be that great run stopping nose tackle for us well into the future. But that leaves one key spot that were already not getting any production from when Monty is not in: the 3 technique tackle.

This is what we need to address in the draft. A DT with multiple moves, and I think it's going to be a good draft class for that.

And Rinehart's got potential, but if Geisinger was worth anything in future value, he's be starting already. Rabach is awful, and he still can't get on the field, so I'm guessing that no one is looking at Geisinger seriously.

[Drift Reality]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

It's not like we don't have solid young linemen that have developed (will develop) into NFL starters-Golston, Montgomery, Heyer, Evans, hopefully Rinehart, Geisinger, and Jackson/Wilson in the not so distant future.

But I guess the concern is that we're not spending high draft picks on the line?

I think out of this list, Golston, Montgomery, Heyer and Evans all have shown that they can be starters. But none of these guys are stars. There isn't one guy on this list who is in the same league as a DeMarcus Ware or Jay Ratliff on Dallas, or Harrison or Woodley on Pitt.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Drift Reality

I think out of this list, Golston, Montgomery, Heyer and Evans all have shown that they can be starters. But none of these guys are stars. There isn't one guy on this list who is in the same league as a DeMarcus Ware or Jay Ratliff on Dallas, or Harrison or Woodley on Pitt.

Three of those guys you mention aren't even linemen, they're linebackers aren't they?

[SouperMeister]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Three of those guys you mention aren't even linemen, they're linebackers aren't they?

Ware, Woodley, and Harrison are 3-4 outside LBs. BTW, I agree with the earlier assessment of Jason Taylor's poor fit for our scheme. He's a disaster against the run when we face a strong offensive line. It is time to draft a strong 2-way DE and a stud DT. We could have had Phillip Merling last draft, but Vinny felt that trading down and drafting WR's was the way to go. I will always maintain that championship caliber clubs are almost always strong on the O and D lines. We will not become an elite team until that is addressed.