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Originally Posted by Redskins8588
I also like our discussions because, IMO, we both try our best to back up our opinions and thoughts with some sort of stat or fact. Never is it "He is great because I think he is," and thats all you get. I understand what you are doing better now and why you rank they way you rank. And I agree that the QB position is too often weighed too heavily. However,I am not sure how you think about this, and I have said it before, when you have a HOF QB, (ie. Favre, Elway(I know how you feel about him, but he is a HOF'er), Marino, Montana...) that QB is so good that they can make average WR's look good. My point is that, IMO, Favre made Freeman look great those seasons that they went to the SB. Marino, again IMO, made Dupper and Clayton look good. And the list goes on, but then you have anomilies where you get HOF WR's to go with HOF QB's. Montan and Young to Rice, Manning to Harrision, Bradshaw to Lynn and Stallworth.
All I am getting at is that if a Team has a HOF caliber player on it, that player will make average players look above average. Too many times have you see a player shine with another player only to leave and fall flat on there face. Example, Culpepper without Moss, Freeman without Favre and many others I am sure.
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I absolutely agree with you. I really don't care if I "change people's minds", (like many people think I am trying to achieve) I will put my best argument on the table, and if you can provide a good argument in return, I will respect that, and agree to disagree like we have on several occasions, and on occasion, my mind has been changed with stats, or an argument I didn't think of. I can't respect arguments based totally on opinion, and no stats or facts to back it up.
I do think you are misunderstanding me about Elway. I do agree he's a hall of famer, I just firmly disagree he's above Favre on the all time list, and IMO he lands somewhere from 10th-15th all time. The argument could be made to have him higher, but that's where I rank him.
I do agree with most everything you say. Moss did indeed help Culpepper, however, I would argue that Culpepper was very good without Moss. Look at his 2004 season when he had 4700+ yards...one of the best seasons in the history of football. Moss had only 49 catches for 767 yards, and Burleson had the best statistical season for the Vikings. Culpepper fell off because of that knee injury, he tried to come back too fast and it hurt his rep.
Ultimately I agree with you saying that a HOFer makes and average player look much better. There are plenty of examples too.