Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

WTF is going on with all this sexual abuse BS? :doh:

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/military-chiefs-balk-at-sex-assault-bill/2013/06/04/cd061cc4-cd1c-11e2-ac03-178510c9cc0a_story.html]Military chiefs balk at sexual-assault bill - The Washington Post[/url]

[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/04/us-usa-military-sexassault-idUSBRE95304F20130604]Senators, military brass battle over curbing sexual assault | Reuters[/url]

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

I'm not happy about these happenings but it has nothing to do with losing faith in the military.
I think they do their job quite well.
And I have always been against integrating women with men in the military.
Too much "shit" can happen and we're seeing that right now.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1010913]I'm not happy about these happenings but it has nothing to do with losing faith in the military.
I think they do their job quite well.
And I have always been against integrating women with men in the military.
Too much "shit" can happen and we're seeing that right now.[/quote]

The title of the thread is just following a theme from other threads.

If they dealt with their "shit" appropriately in the first place they wouldn't be having these problems.

I don't see a logical reason why men and women can't work and serve together as equals. Sad.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

Ok, I'll play along. A prof I was friends with about ten years ago taught at the Air Force Academy in Colorado before I knew him. Though there were far fewer women in the military then he told me one day about everything he heard and saw, and no doubt this nasty stuff has gone on a long time. He said on several occasions different women he advised or simply taught broke down in his office because they'd been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted and the commanding officers refused to do anything. My friend said the reason he left the academy is because of course he couldn't do anything about it either.

The most heinous thing he mentioned is how there was a tradition to lure a female cadet into a room where the male cadet's/officer's friends would be hiding and then they all jump in...ugh. Absolutely disgusting.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Mattyk;1010918]The title of the thread is just following a theme from other threads.

If they dealt with their "shit" appropriately in the first place they wouldn't be having these problems.

[B]I don't see a logical reason why men and women can't work and serve together as equals. Sad.[/B][/quote]

This.

The notion sexual assault is the natural outcome of men and women serving together is BS. If there was real discipline and decency throughout the military this wouldn't be happening, and that's the bottom line.

The military provides a step up for many, many people. Excluding women from the opportunity would be just as wrong as the incidents of sexual assault IMO.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Mattyk;1010918]The title of the thread is just following a theme from other threads.

If they dealt with their "shit" appropriately in the first place they wouldn't be having these problems.

I don't see a logical reason why men and women can't work and serve together as equals. Sad.[/quote]

The same applies in the civilian sector.
Its not like all American perverts and racists are frog marched off to boot camp and put in a uniform.
The military isnt good at HR stuff and I dont ever expect it to be.
Way to much testosterone and bravado being paraded around.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=The Goat;1010922]This.

The notion sexual assault is the natural outcome of men and women serving together is BS. If there was real discipline and decency throughout the military this wouldn't be happening, and that's the bottom line.

The military provides a step up for many, many people. Excluding women from the opportunity would be just as wrong as the incidents of sexual assault IMO.[/quote]

I think that excluding them would be wrong also.
I think that integrating them with men is also a bad idea.
If you put men and women together on an aircraft carrier or on a remote base for an extended deployment you are going to have problems.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1010984]I think that excluding them would be wrong also.
I think that integrating them with men is also a bad idea.
[B]If you put men and women together on an aircraft carrier or on a remote base for an extended deployment you are going to have problems.[/B][/quote]

Weak.

That sort of thinking led to these issues in the first place.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Mattyk;1010992]Weak.

That sort of thinking led to these issues in the first place.[/quote]

Ever watch this doc?

[url=http://www.pbs.org/weta/carrier/]CARRIER | PBS[/url]

A carrier is like a giant floating High School.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Mattyk;1010992]Weak.

That sort of thinking led to these issues in the first place.[/quote]

No, its not weak.
I've been there and seen it to a degree. (seen it on a lower level, not participated)

You cant "command" testosterone especially when its combined with alcohol.

If you recall it was the PC crowd that wanted the integration to happen.
Military commanders were against it for these types of reasons.
They gave warnings but no one listened and it was forced on them.
This is the fault of the PC govt we have, not the military.

And it isnt a "type of thinking" its mother nature, bravado and alcohol doing its thing.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

Whenever we see an NFL player arrested for DUI, the tendency is to scream about how the NFL is filled with a bunch of drunk drivers, leaping to the conclusion that the problem is more prevalent in the NFL than it is for our society as a whole.

Is there any evidence that sexual abuse in the military is any more prevalent than it is in our society as a whole?

And is there any evidence that there are more cover-ups of sexual abuses and assaults than there are in our corporations and elsewhere in our society?

I'm appalled as anybody by sexual abuse. But it has nothing to do with pairing males and females together in a work environment. It's just that when you have a large group of people anyplace, anytime, there's going to be a portion of them who are sick ****s.

Priests molest little boys. That does not mean the Catholic Church is more likely to have molesters than anyplace else.

I'm not dismissing it, organizations like the military and the church need to be held to a higher standard when it comes to responding to these things. But these things are going to happen, and the people who are committing the crime need to be dealt with, no matter where it happens.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

And Matty, I know this is not at all, not even remotely, your intention. But I'd just like to say that our military is amazing and deserves all the thanks and faith in the world for the job they do.

Hopefully they succeed at changing the sexual abuse culture as well as they succeed in protecting our nation and interests.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1010995]No, its not weak.
I've been there and seen it to a degree. (seen it on a lower level, not participated)

You cant "command" testosterone especially when its combined with alcohol.

If you recall it was the PC crowd that wanted the integration to happen.
Military commanders were against it for these types of reasons.
They gave warnings but no one listened and it was forced on them.
This is the fault of the PC govt we have, not the military.

And it isnt a "type of thinking" its mother nature, bravado and alcohol doing its thing.[/quote]

Like I said, this line of thinking led to these issues.

You're basically throwing your hands up and saying oh well, when men and women get together shit happens.

Lame.

The military clearly looked the other way for too long and did not have policies in place to discourage this behavior and to properly discipline those that were clearly way out of line.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Schneed10;1010996]Whenever we see an NFL player arrested for DUI, the tendency is to scream about how the NFL is filled with a bunch of drunk drivers, leaping to the conclusion that the problem is more prevalent in the NFL than it is for our society as a whole.

Is there any evidence that sexual abuse in the military is any more prevalent than it is in our society as a whole?

And is there any evidence that there are more cover-ups of sexual abuses and assaults than there are in our corporations and elsewhere in our society?

I'm appalled as anybody by sexual abuse. But it has nothing to do with pairing males and females together in a work environment. It's just that when you have a large group of people anyplace, anytime, there's going to be a portion of them who are sick ****s.

Priests molest little boys. That does not mean the Catholic Church is more likely to have molesters than anyplace else.

I'm not dismissing it, [B]organizations like the military and the church need to be held to a higher standard when it comes to responding to these things[/B]. But these things are going to happen, and the people who are committing the crime need to be dealt with, no matter where it happens.[/quote]

That's all I'm trying to get at.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1010913]I think they do their job quite well.[/quote]


If you classify their job as killing people than yes they do that quite well. Unfortunately, they kill far too many innocent people to consider anything they do "well."

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Mattyk;1011003]Like I said, this line of thinking led to these issues.

You're basically throwing your hands up and saying oh well, when men and women get together shit happens.

Lame.

The military clearly looked the other way for too long and did not have policies in place to discourage this behavior and to properly discipline those that were clearly way out of line.[/quote]

The policies are in place.
However men do not think with their polices.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

I have tremendous amount of faith in our military to do its main job. I have far less faith it can keep its house clean. The nature of their "work" leads to a culture where stuff like this would seem to be more prevalent. For that fact alone leadership needs to put more effort into eradicating this stuff. I know there is are lot of institutional-culture issues here that are ingrained due to the historical gender makeup and that efforts to mitigate that are going to take time. But the efforts still have to happen. Fighting it is about the worst idea ever,

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1011008]The policies are in place.
However men do not think with their polices.[/quote]

That's why commanders have to.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1011007]If you classify their job as killing people than yes they do that quite well. Unfortunately, they kill far too many innocent people to consider anything they do "well."[/quote]

Wow...nice thread derail.
Anyone else wanna bash our military?

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1011008]The policies are in place.
However men do not think with their polices.[/quote]

I'd like to think we have some high functioning individuals in charge there, and not some brain dead cavemen being led around by their cocks.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=FRPLG;1011011]That's why commanders have to.[/quote]

Oh really?
Then why dont the policies and laws in the civilain sector work infallibly?

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1011014]Oh really?
Then why dont the policies and laws in the civilain sector work infallibly?[/quote]

Huh?

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=FRPLG;1011016]Huh?[/quote]

Since this is a problem in the civilain sector, how do you expect the military to be better at it?

The best commander in the world cant prevent a drunk sailor form getting overly horny and making a really bad decision. They cant follow them around all night.

I dont get why the military gets selective bashing on this.

Some may think they need to be held at a higher standard but they are still people, as are civilians.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1011022]Since this is a problem in the civilain sector, how do you expect the military to be better at it?

The best commander in the world cant prevent a drunk sailor form getting overly horny and making a really bad decision. They cant follow them around all night.

[B]I dont get why the military gets selective bashing on this.[/B]

Some may think they need to be held at a higher standard but they are still people, as are civilians.[/quote]

Do you think the military is being unfairly singled out? Was Penn St also selectively bashed?

Of course sexual abuse is not a military issue alone, but they are clearly on the forefront right now as far as how not to handle this type of thing in the workplace.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1011022]Since this is a problem in the civilain sector, how do you expect the military to be better at it?

The best commander in the world cant prevent a drunk sailor form getting overly horny and making a really bad decision. They cant follow them around all night.

I dont get why the military gets selective bashing on this.

Some may think they need to be held at a higher standard but they are still people, as are civilians.[/quote]

Who said better? I think most would settle for "not looking the other way when female cadets get raped".

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Mattyk;1011023]Do you think the military is being unfairly singled out? Was Penn St also selectively bashed?

Of course sexual abuse is not a military issue alone, but they are clearly on the forefront right now as far as how not to handle this type of thing in the workplace.[/quote]

They are on the forefront because the media chose to put them there.
Did the media make you aware of this or did multiple plantiffs call you up?
And they have been forced into a much more delicate situation regarding all this because our PC congress said they have to.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=FRPLG;1011027]Who said better? I think most would settle for "not looking the other way when female cadets get raped".[/quote]

And again I will reiterate that the same thing happens in the civilain sector.
Penn State comes to mind.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

They'er at the fore front because they are one of our countries largest employer and a very visible organization. They're not "just another company". Plus they're aren't like a real company in the sense that they don't just have offices where people work and go home. Military is a life-style employment. You live on base, are trained there, work there, eat there, etc... They're not "singled out". But I get what you're saying.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1011031]And again I will reiterate that the same thing happens in the civilain sector.
Penn State comes to mind.[/quote]

Bull f'n sh*t. No company I have ever worked at looked the other way while the male employees gang-raped the secretary over a lunch table. Because a) the notion of something like that happening is preposterous and b) they wouldn't look the other way.

Anyone else have something like that happen??

Note: and Penn State had their ass handed to them over it.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=FRPLG;1011033]Bull f'n sh*t. No company I have ever worked at looked the other way while the male employees gang-raped the secretary over a lunch table. Because a) the notion of something like that happening is preposterous and b) they wouldn't look the other way.

Anyone else have something like that happen??

Note: and Penn State had their ass handed to them over it.[/quote]

I said civilians.
Not corporations.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

There was also this

[url=http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2013/05/31/navy-investigating-three-football-players-on-charges-of-sexual-assault/2375553/]Navy investigating three football players on charges of sexual assault[/url]

And I agree with Schneed

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1011028]They are on the forefront because the media chose to put them there.
Did the media make you aware of this or did multiple plantiffs call you up?
And they have been forced into a much more delicate situation regarding all this because our PC congress said they have to.[/quote]

Blah blah blame it on the media.

If the military had their shit in order they wouldn't be in the news.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1011028]They are on the forefront because the media chose to put them there.
.[/quote]


Dead wrong! They are in the forefront because the Victims are fighting back!

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Mattyk;1011044]Blah blah blame it on the media.

If the military had their shit in order they wouldn't be in the news.[/quote]

I'm not blaming it on the media, nor did I say that or imply that.
C'mon Matthew, I thought you were bigger than that.
This kind of thing happens across the board.
You're currently bashing the military because its currently the popular thing to do.
No entity in America has their shit in order regarding this.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Giantone;1011047]Dead wrong! They are in the forefront because the Victims are fighting back![/quote]

A lot of rapists outside the military are convicted regularly.
So your point is [B]crap[/B].
And I will reiterate that the media put them in the forefront.
So your view of what the "forefront" is, is what cccn.com TELLS you it should be.
You fall in line nicely.....

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1011049]A lot of rapists outside the military are convicted regularly.
So your point is [B]crap[/B].
And I will reiterate that the media put them in the forefront.
So your view of what the "forefront" is, is what cccn.com TELLS you it should be.
You fall in line nicely.....[/quote]


God you hate to being wrong!LOL
If the victims were not fighting back and being the good little soldiers the Military wanted ....you wouldn't know crap about any of this.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Schneed10;1010998]And Matty, I know this is not at all, not even remotely, your intention. But I'd just like to say that our military is amazing and deserves all the thanks and faith in the world for the job they do.

Hopefully they succeed at changing the sexual abuse culture as well as they succeed in protecting our nation and interests.[/quote]



This!

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Giantone;1011052]God you hate to being wrong!LOL
If the victims were not fighting back and being the good little soldiers the Military wanted ....you wouldn't know crap about any of this.[/quote]

I dont doubt that it happened nor do I doubt that charges are being filed.
I also dont doubt that its a poplular topic because the media chose to make it popular.
Some of you are just bashing the military because you are eating what they are feeding you.

Yes I agree this issue is bad...[B]its bad in the military[/B].
Its also worse in the private sector.
So why single out the military?

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1011048]I'm not blaming it on the media, nor did I say that or imply that.
C'mon Matthew, I thought you were bigger than that.
This kind of thing happens across the board.
You're currently bashing the military because its currently the popular thing to do.
No entity in America has their shit in order regarding this.[/quote]

What?

You just said it's an issue because the media is making it one. Sounds like blaming the media to me. Maybe you should be more clear with what you're saying or implying.

I'm not bashing the military because its "popular", I'm bashing them because they dropped the ball big time. Just like Penn St. and plenty of others.

Is this just a non story to you? I'm really not understanding what we're even going back and forth about.

Re: Has anyone else completely lost faith in the military?
 

[quote=Mattyk;1011056]What?

You just said it's an issue because the media is making it one. Sounds like blaming the media to me. Maybe you should be more clear with what you're saying or implying.

I'm not bashing the military because its "popular", I'm bashing them because they dropped the ball big time. Just like Penn St. and plenty of others.

Is this just a non story to you? I'm really not understanding what we're even going back and forth about.[/quote]

I am blaming the media.
For hyping it.
Its an issue across the board. The ball is dropped everywhere.
So yes, it should be a non story because they are singling out the military.
Is today the military's turn to get beat up over it?
When do we bash other entity's that have have this issue.
Because all of the private sectors do.

And as I stated before - its harder to control in the military because >>> see all the stuff I have already posted above.