Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

At the very least, Rob Jackson has played himself into a new contract offer somewhere. Hopefully here. How can Jim Haslett take these two talented players and make them co-exist on the field.

Unless I've missed something, Brian Orakpo does not have one interception as a Washington Redskin. Rob Jackson has four this season and one for a touchdown.

My question is, are we so wedded to the idea of keeping Orakpo no matter what? Has he been [I][B]that[/B][/I] valuable to the team? His sack total has declined since his first season and he's nothing to write home about in pass coverage. By keeping both players, are we limiting one or the other's potential impact on the team?

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

I think Orakpo should be the starter. Yes Jackson has made some very nice plays but Rak is the better player. Well, I should say he's a better pass rusher. But it's good to see someone that's been here a while get a chance to play and do well while he's in there.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

there is room for both.

rob jackson's stat line has benefited from the entire defense raising their game. i'm sure orakpo would have done the same, they're both able to make big plays.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Excellent question and definitely something that will be an issue after this season. Personally I think we let Jackson walk. He has played his way into starter money, which he will undoubtedly want, along with being a starter on another team. And there's just no way to keep them both on the field at the same time, unless we shift one of them (probably Jackson) to MLB, which I don't see happening. And even then he wouldn't be starting until Fletch retires/gets let go.

What I could see happening is us getting a trade offer for Orakpo, probably from a 4-3 team, and that making our decision a lot easier. If not, Orakpo stays, Jackson goes. There's just no room for both of them. The big thing here is what coaches value more, a linebacker who's good in coverage, or a linebacker who's good at rushing the passer. Usually it's the latter that wins out.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

You can't just say the defense has raised it's game in vacuum. Rob Jackson is a big part of that reason. You can't dismiss that. And when Orakpo was starting the Redskins were abysmal in the turnover category.

Are we conflating better athlete with better football player?

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Of course there is, if it wasn't for his backup depth the skins would be screwed. There's always room for great players.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

In my opinion, it's really imperative for us to try resign Jackson. No I don't think we would limit both's potential impact on the team if we keep both. Our defense experienced decline in pass rush once Orakpo went down. Orakpo is better at pressuring QB than Jackson is, however Jackson makes plays that Orakpo doesn't. If Orakpo or Kerrigan goes down next season, Jackson can fill in immediately and there will not be a significant decline in defense performance.

To maximize both potential impact for our defense is to play them both, along with Kerrigan. After what I have seen how creative Haslett is with defense looks, I have 100% confidence in Haslett's ability to maximize all players' potential.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

cant let Jackson just walk after his play this year. no way, unless you want to experience Antonio Pierce all over again. He creates way too many turnovers, gotta keep him and give him some snaps.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

I don't think Jackson has played himself into a starter type, big money contract. If someone wants to give him that, so be it. I think we can keep him for a decent deal.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Mooby, so we're kinda on the same page here. Orakpo is 26 years old, Rob Jackson is 27 years old. I'm not saying we should, but I'm curious what's the market going to demand for Jackson's services and how much cheaper would that be for Orakpo's current deal.

Also, seems to me guys like Jackson end up playing for the Giants or Philly.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Speaking from purely a football sense, there is definitely room for both of them on the roster as well as in the defense. Rak is, and should be, the starter. He's stronger, faster, rushes the passer better and is a player the offense has to account for on every play. You could see the impact on Kerrigan's effectiveness immediately after Rak went down.

If they both return next year, it could be more of a rotation with Jackson or inserting Jackson into more sub packages to have both of them on the field at the same time. Rather than coming out of a two point stance, Rak could be a DE with Jackson standing up behind him or vice versa. There's plenty of ways for both to be effective and max their talents.

Financially I'm not sure how it would work. While Jackson has carved out a nice niche, I'm not sure he played himself into starter money or even into a starting position on most teams. He's very limited in his pass rushing ability and we're probably seeing his ceiling as a player, which is really good in the proper role. He's a Vrabel type player that winning teams need. Not a stud but someone who excels in his role and won't hurt you when he's on the field.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

One thing with Orakpo is you dont extend him at this point with that type of injury. Let him play his contract out next year to prove he can stay on the field. Thats the real question in my mind when talking about the two.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=12thMan;983234]You can't just say the defense has raised it's game in vacuum. Rob Jackson is a big part of that reason. You can't dismiss that. And when Orakpo was starting the Redskins were abysmal in the turnover category.

Are we conflating better athlete with better football player?[/quote]no doubt jackson is a big part of the improvement.

also can't simply cite that when orakpo was in, turnovers were few and far between.

the play of the entire 11 on defense doesn't solely depend on 1 olb.
they're both very able to make plays, in different ways. there is room for both

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Mattyk;983238]I don't think Jackson has played himself into a starter type, big money contract. If someone wants to give him that, so be it. I think we can keep him for a decent deal.[/quote]

Yeah, I'm not convinced he's going to command a huge salary on the market either. He'll probably test the waters but staying with a playoff team has to appeal to him.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Keep both of them.
Period.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

I think Has will have a good time figuring it out........

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

I'm glad you brought this up into a thread, because I was thinking this the other day when he picked off Romo (see Dallas Postgame thread)

Rob Jackson right now is showing that he's a starter somewhere. Here? I don't know.

But I'll repeat what I said in that post. Being an OLB in the 3-4 is about sacks/pressure first and foremost. Rob Jackson doesn't get the consistent pressure that Orakpo can get on the QB. Just keep in mind how much time we've let opposing QBs (Dalton, Big Ben, Eli, to name a few) have in the pocket to throw. Also keep in mind Rob Jackson went a good 4 games without being named or noticed. He just recently got going making smart picks (something Orakpo can't do) and getting occasional sacks.

Right now, the NFL Free Agency Market of OLBs are:

1. Shaun Phillips
2. Connor Barwin
3. Anthony Spencer
4. Rob Jackson

(as for 4-3 DEs who could be 3-4 OLBs)
Dwight Freeney
Cliff Avril
Osi Umenyiora
Michael Johnson

The point is, there are some other pass rusher names out there this year to make Robs potential deal high salary, but also guys that can go to other teams since they are all starters and proven.

I'll leave with this; When Orakpo went out everyone here panicked. Rob Jackson hasn't made me forget about Orakpo--he's been good, but hasn't been Orakpo pro bowl caliber great. If Rob Jackson leaves, I won't panic, but I'd love to have him back as GREAT depth.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

I think Osi and Freeney will be elsewhere next season.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Nothing wrong with having a starter and a really good back up. As Matty said, I don't think Jackson has played himself into a starter position here, Orakpo is clearly the better player. I think our team will be in a better position if we have both player on the roster.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Our pass rush has been noticeably less since we lost Rak. As great as Rob Jackson is off of the bench, he is no real substitute as a full-time starter. I say we keep him for depth if we can.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

IMO, I hope he stays and they both see significant playing time next year. I want to see Orakpo return to form ... if not, hello Jackson in a bigger role than Rak. Point blank.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Why, when we have solid depth, does the question become "Do we need xxx?" Granted there are salary cap concerns, and if Jackson pushes for an unworkable deal, we may have to let him go, but within the constraints that are the modern salary cap, we should keep both of them, and be glad that we are producing solid talent, with good attitudes.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;983276]Why, when we have solid depth, does the question become "Do we need xxx?" Granted there are salary cap concerns, and if Jackson pushes for an unworkable deal, we may have to let him go, but within the constraints that are the modern salary cap, we should keep both of them, and be glad that we are producing solid talent, with good attitudes.[/quote]

^^^ For the win.

Clearly, given your otherwise dullard-like responses, you are related to someone of brilliance for your genetic make-up to allow for such moments of clarity.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

What about Lorenzo? Do you keep him too?

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Orakpo has not been the same sense he did those bad Geico comercials.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;983279]What about Lorenzo? Do you keep him too?[/quote]

Lorenzo goes no where.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;983279]What about Lorenzo? Do you keep him too?[/quote]

Yes. All around team guy and very versatile... someone mentioned Jackson being like a Mike Vrabel type i think earlier in the thread... but i think 'Zo is more comparable and i think it's essential we keep him. For ST's and depth. He's a redskin as long as we keep him around.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=12thMan;983234]You can't just say the defense has raised it's game in vacuum. Rob Jackson is a big part of that reason. You can't dismiss that. [B]And when Orakpo was starting the Redskins were abysmal in the turnover category.[/B]

Are we conflating better athlete with better football player?[/quote]

Are we basing this on the 1 1/3 games that we actually saw Orakpo on the field this season? If so, I have to point out how small of a sample size that is. If not, I feel like it's a little ridiculous to compare any other year to this one given the way winning seems to have inspired this team; the defense in particular.

I think this team really needs to keep as much talent as it possibly can on the defensive side of the ball, particularly when you consider how bad they were to start the season. Having depth should be a luxury. I'm glad Jackson stepped in and made some plays, but I don't think he's better than Brian Orakpo and I wouldn't cut or trade Orakpo in order to keep him. Also, I think creating a hole behind Jackson is a bad idea. I like Wilson and Alexander as situational players, but I think banking on Jackson and thinking he'll never get hurt would be a mistake. For me, if you get rid of Orakpo, you also need a new guy to back up Jackson.

As happy as I've been with Jackson's impact, which surprised me, I still think Orakpo comes back and is the starter on this defense. If the front office decides Jackson is the better player, I'll be very surprised.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;983279]What about Lorenzo? Do you keep him too?[/quote]

Of course, he is a pro bowler and he is great at what he does on special teams.

He can back up the other OLB (Rob Jackson backs up one, he backs up the other)

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;983279]What about Lorenzo? Do you keep him too?[/quote]no room for him [COLOR="White"]please know that i am kidding[/COLOR]

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

I think Lorenzo and Jackson both get deals in the 2MM/year range for 2013, with significant increases in 2014 when we have cap room again. We're gonna have to work hard to meet the cap minimum in 2014.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Redskins will most likely have to spend more money than they half in order to keep both.I would choose Orakpo but redskins will most likely lose Jackson

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=12thMan;983234]You can't just say the defense has raised it's game in vacuum. Rob Jackson is a big part of that reason. You can't dismiss that. And when Orakpo was starting the Redskins were abysmal in the turnover category.

[B]Are we conflating better athlete with better football player?[/B][/quote]

You are exactly right. This post hits it on the head.
This very same thing that happened on our offense. A so called "better player" Fred Davis went down and a perceived "lesser player" [B]Logan Paulsen[/B] had to take over and the team improved. Coincidence? No.
Team Chemistry is so important, sometimes it is a small tiny unappreciated skill that can solidify a unit. Hardly anyone appreciates a run blocking TE on offense, it is all receiving as the measurable for TE's. On defense nobody appreciates an OLB that can cover over one that gets more sacks.

We talk and preach about balance, but we do not have as much balance on defense when both of our OLB's are similar strong pass rush guys but neither is a great coverage LB. You can't rush both OLB's on every play, they have to cover at some point. Yes we give up sacks to our sack total with out Rak and Jackson in his place. But sacks is just one phase of the game and we are winning with Jackson. With Jackson we gain a compliment to the defense and a skill set that was missing at the OLB position that in turn helps solidify the defense.
Winning is more important than stats and having a solid def and off units is more important than leading the league in sacks. There is so much more to football than one stat.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Defensewins;983296]You are exactly right. This post hits it on the head.
This very same thing that happened on our offense. [B]A so called "better player" Fred Davis went down and a perceived "lesser player" [B]Logan Paulsen[/B] had to take over and the team improved. Coincidence? No.[/B]
Team Chemistry is so important, sometimes it is a small tiny unappreciated skill that can solidify a unit. That is what happened, nobody appreciates a run blocking TE on offense, it is all passing. On defense nobody appreciates an OLB that can cover over sacks.
We talk and preach about balance, but we do not have balance on defense when both of our OLB's are similar strong pass rush guys but neither is a great coverage LB. You can't rush both OLB's on every play, they have to cover at some point. Yes we give up sacks to our sack total with out Rak and Jackson in his place. But sacks is just one phase of the game and we are winning with Jackson. With Jackson we gain a compliment to the defense and a skill set that was missing at the OLB position that in turn helps solidify the defense.[/quote]please

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;983276]Why, when we have solid depth, does the question become "Do we need xxx?" Granted there are salary cap concerns, and if Jackson pushes for an unworkable deal, we may have to let him go, but within the constraints that are the modern salary cap, we should keep both of them, and be glad that we are producing solid talent, with good attitudes.[/quote]


Agreed, 100%. A depth player coming off the bench and doing his job at an acceptable level doesn't automatically make an elite talent expendable. Also, the only thing that Jackson does at an above average level is cover in the flat. I doubt that will draw starting OLB money.

Few things are more aggravating than watching this organization let talented(homegrown) players walk. I recognize there are valid reasons for letting certain players go, and the Orakpo situation will need to be assessed due to his recent injury history. However in a perfect world and hindsight being what it is, I would rather have a defense with the services of Brian Orakpo, Laron Landry, and Carlos Rogers, than Rob Jackson, Madieu Williams, and Josh Wilson.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Jackson's probably played himself to a better contract than Lorenzo but neither should be getting a starter's deal. Lorenzo is a Lego you put in 6 different places and you know he'll be solid. Jackson seems to be a good guy with solid football smarts and a dash of football-player athleticism thrown in but he isn't an every down force. He's a fantastic depth player who can start for you in a pinch. Good teams develop players like that, lose them when they perform, replace them with someone similarly skilled and develop that new person.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=FRPLG;983305]Jackson's probably played himself to a better contract than Lorenzo but neither should be getting a starter's deal. Lorenzo is a Lego you put in 6 different places and you know he'll be solid. Jackson seems to be a good guy with solid football smarts and a dash of football-player athleticism thrown in but he isn't an every down force. He's a fantastic depth player who can start for you in a pinch. Good teams develop players like that, lose them when they perform, replace them with someone similarly skilled and develop that new person.[/quote]

That is exactly what Rob Jackson is, a player you develop and replace.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;983279]What about Lorenzo? Do you keep him too?[/quote]

Absolutely. He is unlikely to create cap problems and is precisely the lunch pail type of player that every locker room needs.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Maybe I am crazy, but I see Orkapo and Kerrigan excelling at playing as down linemen, Jackson playing great as a coverage LB... so how about the 4-3?

Starters:

DE: Kerrigan, Orkapo
DT: Cofield, Jenkins
LB: Jackson (O), Fletcher*(M), Riley (O)
S: Draft, Draft :(
CB: Hall, Wilson


* - If Fletcher retires then it's a camp toss up

I like the look of that front 7.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

I like all angles of the discussion. But no one can convince me that Brian Orakpo is an elite talent at this point in his career. He has solid sack totals, but that's it. And not to diminish his talent and contribution to the team, but freak of nature doesn't get it for me. Now I'm not saying dump the guy or trade him or any of that, but I think we get caught up and miss the point at times.

Mario Williams accumulated a lot of sacks in Houston, but they aren't missing him one bit down there.