My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

I was going to revive this thread ([url]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/45324-some-optimism-on-the-shanaplan.html[/url]) from late last season on the 'Shanaplan' as I saw it then and why I was optimistic. He did 3 of the 4 things I wanted to see done in the offseason (improve WR, get OL depth and of course fix the QB but he didn't upgrade CB) so now this is truly 'HIS' roster. I believe I saw a stat this weekend that 41 of the 53 on the roster are his players, either by draft, free agency or trade. I was optimistic then and even more so now.

I went back and looked at the 53 man roster from 2010's opening day vs. today's roster. From that 2010 roster there are 23 players no longer in the NFL. Of those still in the league and on other teams, only 4 (McIntosh, Landry, Rogers & Artis Hicks) are starters. Two of them lost starting jobs for us (Hicks and McIntosh). Interestingly enough only 4 inherited players (Davis, Montgomery, Fletcher & Hall) are starters as well. Does this give an indication of just how bad of a team he inherited?

All that being said, this is the year I need to see the plan begin to come to bear fruit. I'm not looking for a 5-11 to 11-5 turnaround because I don't feel that's realistic with a rookie QB but these are now his player, his team, his roster composition. I'm not giving him a complete pass for '10 and '11 but I think from this point on is where we can really start to see if he is the coach and leader to take us to the postseason on a consistent basis.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

Its not the economy, its Kyle.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=CrustyRedskin;936413]Its not the economy, its Kyle.[/quote]

This is going to be a really telling year for Kyle as well. I have felt for a couple of years that there is nothing wrong with Kyle's schemes, he just hasn't had the players. His playcalling causes some head scratching sometimes, but again, I want to see how he calls plays with viable weapons at QB, TE and WR. I think our RB are nothing special individually. Collectively, they may be able to be something and there's a lot of pressure on the zone scheme to produce this year.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=Paintrain;936410]I was going to revive this thread ([url]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/45324-some-optimism-on-the-shanaplan.html[/url]) from late last season on the 'Shanaplan' as I saw it then and why I was optimistic. He did 3 of the 4 things I wanted to see done in the offseason (improve WR, get OL depth and of course fix the QB but he didn't upgrade CB) so now this is truly 'HIS' roster. I believe I saw a stat this weekend that 41 of the 53 on the roster are his players, either by draft, free agency or trade. I was optimistic then and even more so now.

I went back and looked at the 53 man roster from 2010's opening day vs. today's roster. From that 2010 roster there are 23 players no longer in the NFL. Of those still in the league and on other teams, only 4 (McIntosh, Landry, Rogers & Artis Hicks) are starters. Two of them lost starting jobs for us (Hicks and McIntosh). Interestingly enough only 4 inherited players (Davis, Montgomery, Fletcher & Hall) are starters as well. Does this give an indication of just how bad of a team he inherited?

All that being said, this is the year I need to see the plan begin to come to bear fruit. I'm not looking for a 5-11 to 11-5 turnaround because I don't feel that's realistic with a rookie QB but these are now his player, his team, his roster composition. I'm not giving him a complete pass for '10 and '11 but I think from this point on is where we can really start to see if he is the coach and leader to take us to the postseason on a consistent basis.[/quote]


Yeah??? The two thinings I wanted was for us to get rid of Haslett and Doughty, and that hasn't happened!

:laughing-

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

I need to see improvement, but I don't buy the "it's his roster" yes most of the roster was picked by the current regime, and whats left of the old are arguably the "happy accidents" of Snyderatto.

But realistically and without letting emotion come into the discussion, how many of the current players are stop gaps, patches and temporary filler as opposed to ideal players he would pick if he had more than 3 drafts, and more cap space in the last free agent signing period?

Albert Haynesworth and D Hall are still bad decisions that are hamstringing Shanahan (see the cap penalties). The roster is riddled with "the best we can do under the circumstances" The safety position, the CB's, the O line especially.

Look at the roster position by position and ask yourself what spots are "set" "on paper":

QB at the expense of 3 firsts a 2nd and a 4th, plus what they paid for McNabb. He couldn't take Locker (IMO he was going to) last year so he had to go all in this year.
WR (as the expense of most of the cap and several later round picks) seems like it's where Shanahan would want it on paper.
DL Well done rebuild here, the best unit on the team for skill + depth IMO.

TE the only position he inherited depth from Snyderatto and it's flawed (Weed), and now back to being a questionable position due to Cooley being cut.
RB has always been a "off the pile" position for Shanny but is hardly what anyone can call "set".
LB arguable, but at the expense of first round Picks in both era's no depth at either outside or inside. Good starters though, one of them wont be here much longer.
OL patchwork, he inherited total garbage and two retirements, still clearly a WIP despite multiple picks.
DB's the unit that is still the least improved and has seen the most turn over. Also the most temporary "warm bodies" and the least high picks devoted to it, also has an aging (some would say washed up) left over.

That doesn't look to me like most of the team is where Shanny would want it "on paper". Obviously no team is perfect, and at some point he has to start winning anyway. But in my opinion in an ideal world he should get another year, another draft and free agency... But I recognize that he wont. In fact I suspect anything less than .500 this year will result in firings, because that's how Snyder rolls :)

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

My evaluation of Shanahan was complete before he even got here.

One playoff victory in his last 10 years in Denver despite a weaker division and bigger home field advantage than he has now, and that was with entirely his own roster.

Why would anyone expect him to be successful here?

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=davy;936417]My evaluation of Shanahan was complete before he even got here.

One playoff victory in his last 10 years in Denver despite a weaker division and bigger home field advantage than he has now, and that was with entirely his own roster.

Why would anyone expect him to be successful here?[/quote]

I confess that I mostly agree with you and have done so since before we hired the Shanny. However, for me I have to leave open the possibility that he could create something special. Just because he was moribund for about a decade doesn't mean he will always be moribund. He has made some moves which I like.

But if we get to the end of the Shanny era having seen nothing but mediocrity, color me unsurprised.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=Paintrain;936410]I was going to revive this thread ([url]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/45324-some-optimism-on-the-shanaplan.html[/url]) from late last season on the 'Shanaplan' as I saw it then and why I was optimistic. He did 3 of the 4 things I wanted to see done in the offseason (improve WR, get OL depth and of course fix the QB but he didn't upgrade CB) so now this is truly 'HIS' roster. I believe I saw a stat this weekend that 41 of the 53 on the roster are his players, either by draft, free agency or trade. I was optimistic then and even more so now.

I went back and looked at the 53 man roster from 2010's opening day vs. today's roster. From that 2010 roster there are 23 players no longer in the NFL. Of those still in the league and on other teams, only 4 (McIntosh, Landry, Rogers & Artis Hicks) are starters. Two of them lost starting jobs for us (Hicks and McIntosh). Interestingly enough only 4 inherited players (Davis, Montgomery, Fletcher & Hall) are starters as well. Does this give an indication of just how bad of a team he inherited?

All that being said, this is the year I need to see the plan begin to come to bear fruit. I'm not looking for a 5-11 to 11-5 turnaround because I don't feel that's realistic with a rookie QB but these are now his player, his team, his roster composition. I'm not giving him a complete pass for '10 and '11 but I think from this point on is where we can really start to see if he is the coach and leader to take us to the postseason on a consistent basis.[/quote]

[url=http://www.realredskins.com/rich-tandlers-real-redsk/2012/09/roster-churn-24-of-last-years-first-53-are-gone.html]Roster churn: 24 of last year's initial 53 are gone - Rich Tandler's Real Redskins[/url]

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

I don't think I could stand to start all over yet again so I'm hoping that the team shows enough progress this season under Shanny to satisfy Dan Snyder, regardless of what that translates to in wins.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

For me, the true measure of improvement is comparing the level of professional[B] play on the field[/B] from the final year of Cerratto/Zorn to what we have now. We are no longer the laughing stock of the NFL. We are no longer the highest payroll combined with one of the worst performing teams in the NFL. We were an embarrassment to football.
I don't care what your perception of talent is on this roster compared to 2010. If the team is playing good sound football, then we are on the right track.
Everyone knows we won three super bowls back in the day with a roster full of cast offs and nobodys. Pedigree and perceived talent don't mean shit once the hitting starts. Give me the Joe Jacobys of the world I don't care. Just play a good quality level of football.
Before the wheels fell off the offensive line and Rb positions last season we were playing pretty good football. We are now deeper and stronger. Add in an RGIII, Garcon, Josh Morgan and Kirk Cousins. After seeing him play I like the Cousins pick.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=Defensewins;936425]For me, the true measure of improvement is comparing the level of professional[B] play on the field[/B] from the final year of Cerratto/Zorn to what we have now. We are no longer the laughing stock of the NFL. We are no longer the highest payroll combined with one of the worst performing teams in the NFL. We were an embarrassment to football.
I don't care what your perception of talent is on this roster compared to 2010. If the team is playing good sound football, then we are on the right track.
Everyone knows we won three super bowls back in the day with a roster full of cast offs and nobodys. Pedigree and perceived talent don't mean shit once the hitting starts. Give me the Joe Jacobys of the world I don't care. Just play a good quality level of football.
Before the wheels fell off the offensive line and Rb positions last season we were playing pretty good football. We are now deeper and stronger. Add in an RGIII, Garcon, Josh Morgan and Kirk Cousins. After seeing him play I like the Cousins pick.[/quote]

good post

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

3 Things AFAIC

1. Its now Mikes roster and to a bit of a degree, Bruces.
If we hump the puppy....its their burden. Let slip the dogs of blame.

2. I will cut Mike a little slack regarding the win column because he has a rook QB.

3A. Kyle can easily fuxxor this whole thing because he sucks at calling plays (IMHO).

3B. I will gladly have an organism if we snag a wild card regardless of my trepidations.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;936429]3 Things AFAIC

1. Its now Mikes roster and to a bit of a degree, Bruces.
If we hump the puppy....its their burden. Let slip the dogs of blame.

2. I will cut Mike a little slack regarding the win column because he has a rook QB.

3A. Kyle can easily fuxxor this whole thing because he sucks at calling plays (IMHO).

3B. I will gladly have an [B]organism [/B]if we snag a wild card regardless of my trepidations.[/quote]

Will it be a multi-cellular organism or will an amoeba do?

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

If Kyle can't get us into the endzone more this season, Mike better man up and cut the cord or he will be the next victim of Mr Snyder's axe in two years tops. IF we do go like 5-11 he might still get the axe after this season. Releasing Cooley was symbolic as Cooley was Gibbs guy. The last guy from Gibbs II left standing now is Moss, who is likely to get cut next offseason ala Chris did this year. Too many nice young Wrs that can be moved up to starting slot guy that will make Santana expendable.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

If the Shanahans can't make any improvements in terms of our record with the upgrades they have, they need to be put on the hot seat. I don't think they should get canned after this season, but next season it is open season for him and his son.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

To me I think a lot of this depends on Danny Boy and his patiences & expectations. I feel we will go 7-9 this year realistically....we went 5-11 last year. With the upgrades I say we will get better by at least two games....if we win more I'll be happy of course. We have a suspect OL outside of Trent....secondary is suspect as well I felt a little better before the Jackson suspension he play pretty well this preseason. I do feel by RG3's second year we will go 9-7, and his 3rd year 11-5 two more wins each season I believe its realistic & do-able. Question remains what is Danny Boy's patience level & realistic expectations for the franchise to make a complete turnaround.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

The title messed me up. I was thinking Kyle not Mike. I think MS and Bruce have had a plan and I'm comfortable with the direction. IMO Kyle is still a weak link at playcalling. More games could have been won last year with better gameday calling. As much as Rex forces things and panics, I think KS does the same. With a stud (hopefully) at QB Kyle needs to show that he can run a gameplan.
If the CB's can hold a ball when it hits their hands then even it should be improved.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

I think the new talent on this team is gonna make shanny look pretty good. And RG3 is gonna make Kyle look more like the OC he appeared to be in Houston.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=53Fan;936436]I think the new talent on this team is gonna make shanny look pretty good. And RG3 is gonna make Kyle look more like the OC he appeared to be in Houston.[/quote]

Welcome back 53. :)

For the Skins to rank where they did on Offense with Rex and Becks under Center was a minor miracle. To blame play calling is a joke. Our QBs sucked, plain and simple.

The team has gone young and fast in a hurry. If RG3 can play, they will put up points. If not, they struggle. Not rocket science.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=53Fan;936436]I think the new talent on this team is gonna make shanny look pretty good. And RG3 is gonna make Kyle look more like the OC he appeared to be in Houston.[/quote]

53 coming back with a strong post. i agree, kyle has more to work with and he should come through.

[QUOTE=Lotus;936430]Will it be a multi-cellular organism or will an amoeba do?[/QUOTE]

Only God can use organism as a verb.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

Thanks and glad to be back fellas. Looking forward to an exciting season of Redskins football. HTTR!!!

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=hooskins;936443]Only God can use organism as a verb.[/quote]

Lol

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

Neither here nor there because I agree with your post but off the top of my head:

I recall Edwin Williams is the starting C for the Bears and their best OL per PFF (at least last year)

Chad Rinehart is a starting OG for the Bills w/ good rating per PFF

[quote=Paintrain;936410]Interestingly enough only 4 inherited players (Davis, Montgomery, Fletcher & Hall) are starters as well. Does this give an indication of just how bad of a team he inherited?

All that being said, this is the year I need to see the plan begin to come to bear fruit. I'm not looking for a 5-11 to 11-5 turnaround because I don't feel that's realistic with a rookie QB but these are now his player, his team, his roster composition. I'm not giving him a complete pass for '10 and '11 but I think from this point on is where we can really start to see if he is the coach and leader to take us to the postseason on a consistent basis.[/quote]I know its a sore subject for some.
But when you look at the roster and the front office that was in place its adds a better perspective about Zorn + Campbell's ability to field a decent passing offense and win as many games as Shanahan has thus far in the face of utter lack of talent.

But, I digress.....
I agree with your post 100%

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

I like Shanahan as our coach, but I don't think much better of him. He still is showing his arrogance every so often whether its how he views his team, how he treats his players, or how he deals with the media.

I will say that he is light years beyond what we've had compared to Zorn (although the win record doesn't show it, which still concerns me). He is somewhat comparable to Gibbs in his second stint, but Shanahans going to be here in the long run, I believe, whereas Gibbs just wanted to be with us for a few years to make us relevant and get a little cash on the side along with getting Snyder to stop blowing up his phone about coming out of retirement and coaching again.

I will say though that I'm also upset with Shanahan in the sense that you see bad teams in the league become good overnight just by the coaching change. Perfect example is San Fran. 6-10 in 2010, to 13-3 the next year. Showing that yes, if you get the right coach you can become good just like that. Shanahan bought himself sometime by drafting RG3. But he can't keep giving excuses or trying to sell us on old players or piss poor starters are 'capable of winning.'

I just feel like Gary Kubiak is the reason for both Shanahan's success in this league (and John Elway). Kyle is just streaky as a play caller. He was great in Houston then comes here has problems with McNabb, endorses Beck, and now we're left with a still overrated OC. He better make RG3 good or else he'll be gone next year.

1 thing I do Love what Shanahan does is he's patient with the draft and FA and is a man with a plan. He doesn't pull the trigger on any player or offer Vinny Cerratto amounts of picks or money either. Perfect example is the other day. KS said he'd like to have Steve Slaton if he was available. Dolphins wanted AA and a pick for Slaton. Cerratto would have given them a 7th rounder and AA. Instead we waited, didn't budge, and low and behold, we cut AA and they cut slaton, we could have lost a pick if it wasn't for this smart regime.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

I see big improvement in Mike Shanahan as a GM than he was in Denver. It's taken him three years to get the Redskins competitive. Offensively and defensive, this 2012 Redskin team could very well be a playoff team. The Redskins have enormous talent at every key position on offense now. The QB, RB, TE, WRs are all potential play makers. The offensive line while not the best in the NFL by far is solid enough and will only get better in time.

On the defense, the Redskins have play makers as well. Just like last year, the biggest weakness is in the secondary if a weakness does exist. The defensive line and linebacking corps are tough. It's hard to predict how many games the Redskins will win this season. But I doubt if the Redskins will be 6-10 and 5-11 like they were in 2010 and 2011. I look for big improvement.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[url=http://deadspin.com/5939537/why-your-team-sucks-2012-washington-redskins]Why Your Team Sucks 2012: Washington Redskins[/url]

Saw this what do you think. Makes some OK thoughts, but I think overall we must of cut him awhile ago and he never got over it.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=NYCskinfan82;936459][url=http://deadspin.com/5939537/why-your-team-sucks-2012-washington-redskins]Why Your Team Sucks 2012: Washington Redskins[/url]

Saw this what do you think. Makes some OK thoughts, but I think overall we must of cut him awhile ago and he never got over it.[/quote]

This article is 80% horse doo-doo. But, if you read it as satire, it has some funny parts. For example:

"He (Snyder) could hire Rich Kotite and dump a pound of anthrax in the center of the stadium and these idiots would remain blindly loyal. It's mystifying."

[I]I laughed out loud at this observation because it's true - and we're damn proud of it![/I]

"Never go to FedEx Field. Ever. Going to FedEx Field is like traveling 30 years into the future to catch a glimpse of America's eventual economic ruin. Biker gangs encircle you for minutes at a time. People are drinking pure ethanol. Women are tit-grabbed at every possible opportunity. It is perhaps the least welcoming environment on Earth."

[I]He's apparently never been to an Eagles home game.[/I]

"DeAngelo Hall is like someone took all the worst parts of Asante Samuel's game and made an entire player out of them."

[I]I wish I had thought of this first and posted it on The Warpath.[/I]

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

I can at least entertain the argument that Shanahan has brought something important to the team that was lacking with Jim Zorn, even if it hasn't shown in the standings. But I think the discussion should begin there, and back with the decisions made two years ago that shaped this team to be the way it is today, and not with a total write off of the last two seasons.

The problem is that if the Redskins underachieve again this year and go 6-10, then some people are going to claim that no one could have seen that coming and we need a longer time period to evaluate Mr. Shanahan.

But the truth is: the reason that no one is picking the Redskins to win the division in Shanahan's third year is because we've seen over the last two years that things aren't different than they were under Zorn, so we're looking for small positive signs from RG3 et al, instead of big things from our football team.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

We're not going to do well this season, but Shannahan has done a great job of reviving the roster from the mess Gibbs left him. He's succesfully transitioned us to a 3-4 defense, dropped our average age by about 8 years, and has really looked to build us up for the future.

I expect us to see RG3 struggle while he gains experience and builds a rapport with Garcon, Davis, etc. We will see an improved level of play on the field, but due to a difficult schedule and too many unknowns and some inexperience (with the NFL, scheme, etc) I don't think we'll see a big increase in wins. Regardless, Shanny has my vote of confidence. Even if he doesn't turn us into a winner, he will leave the next guy with a much better roster than he started with here in DC.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

A team wins football games not 53 individual people. If there is one thing that stands out with all the previous Redskins supper bowl units is that they were a team and won as a team. Note: My statement above does not mean I'm saying they didn't have talent, they did. However the sum of all the parts was much stronger then each individual.

Shanny has been cultivating that since day one. RG3 seems to get that too and from all I've read and seen of the preseason the team is much more connected then they have been in years.

I think that will translate into more wins this year.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=GTripp0012;936462]
But the truth is: the reason that no one is picking the Redskins to win the division in Shanahan's third year is because we've seen over the last two years that things aren't different than they were under Zorn, so we're looking for small positive signs from RG3 et al, instead of big things from our football team.[/quote]

That isn't even remotely the truth.

The reason no ones picking the Skins to win the division is that most people are observant enough to realize that the Eagles, Giants and Cowboys all have established QB's and are all more stocked with skilled players further along in their development, and have had better records. and this makes it likely that they will win more games than the Skins. It doesn't guarantee it of course and this year is a lot more up in the air. Who knows, I could see the Eagles and Cowboys self destructing (or wining the division for that matter they are both very volatile teams) Along with that most observant people can see the Skins have a rookie QB and are still in a rebuild, and on paper are less stocked with players (although the gap is getting smaller for sure).

Things aren't different? IMO Stupid discipline penalties, false starts, delay of game and the like have declined remarkably. I wont look the stats up but I believe they have declined a lot. Have the personnel decisions gotten better? Well arguable because of McNabb and Brown, but at least in the second year onward for the most part they seem to have. Are the "inmates" still "running the asylum"? Are we seeing pampered prima donnas who don't have to practice and a clear lack of competition in camp or a bunch of silly dramas? No not post Fat Albert, Snyderatto's golden poster boy for why the last ten years failed. Have they made any Jason Taylor like trades? Well McNabb pretty much so yeah, still not sure how much of that was Snyder pushing for jersey sales versus Shanahan wanting it... Never seemed like a Mike Shanahan move to me. How about bringing in WAY OVERPAID old has been free agents? No in fact they have been good about getting younger FA's and concentrating on drafts. Are they still taking upside in the draft and disregarding character and work ethic almost entirely? No it doesn't appear that way, it looks like the opposite.

The Team has a worse record post Zorn for pretty clear reasons, unless of course you think Vinny and Zorn were better at their jobs than the current regime? It seems easy to observe that they lost a number of decent but past their prime Veteran players especially on the OL, at the same time that a bunch of Snyderatto's terrible picks all washed out... over the course of a couple years. While a few GOOD vets and picks that they happened on to by accident have become free agents and moved on.

They are three years "post Snyderatto" and the only remarkable draft picks left on the team picked by them are Brian Orakpo and Davis. Talk about a complete failure at every level.

IMO the argument could be made that not going 2-14 or 3-13 the past couple years is a minor accomplishment (or a hindrance to the rebuild depending on how you want to look at it) especially given how easy it is for a team to fall hard when adversity sets in (See the Colts).

So it's pretty clear with hindsight that whether they turn out to be successful or not, the Shanahan's jumped into a plane that was in a nose dive plummeting towards the earth and are still trying overcome downward momentum to level off. If they can manage to pull it out of the dive before it smashes them into the ground remains to be seen.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=44 goes 50 gut;936477]That isn't even remotely the truth.

The reason no ones picking the Skins to win the division is that most people are observant enough to realize that the Eagles, Giants and Cowboys all have established QB's and are all more stocked with skilled players further along in their development, and have had better records. and this makes it likely that they will win more games than the Skins. It doesn't guarantee it of course and this year is a lot more up in the air. Who knows, I could see the Eagles and Cowboys self destructing (or wining the division for that matter they are both very volatile teams) Along with that most observant people can see the Skins have a rookie QB and are still in a rebuild, and on paper are less stocked with players (although the gap is getting smaller for sure).

Things aren't different? IMO Stupid discipline penalties, false starts, delay of game and the like have declined remarkably. I wont look the stats up but I believe they have declined a lot. Have the personnel decisions gotten better? Well arguable because of McNabb and Brown, but at least in the second year onward for the most part they seem to have. Are the "inmates" still "running the asylum"? Are we seeing pampered prima donnas who don't have to practice and a clear lack of competition in camp or a bunch of silly dramas? No not post Fat Albert, Snyderatto's golden poster boy for why the last ten years failed. Have they made any Jason Taylor like trades? Well McNabb pretty much so yeah, still not sure how much of that was Snyder pushing for jersey sales versus Shanahan wanting it... Never seemed like a Mike Shanahan move to me. How about bringing in WAY OVERPAID old has been free agents? No in fact they have been good about getting younger FA's and concentrating on drafts. Are they still taking upside in the draft and disregarding character and work ethic almost entirely? No it doesn't appear that way, it looks like the opposite.

The Team has a worse record post Zorn for pretty clear reasons, unless of course you think Vinny and Zorn were better at their jobs than the current regime? It seems easy to observe that they lost a number of decent but past their prime Veteran players especially on the OL, at the same time that a bunch of Snyderatto's terrible picks all washed out... over the course of a couple years. While a few GOOD vets and picks that they happened on to by accident have become free agents and moved on.

They are three years "post Snyderatto" and the only remarkable draft picks left on the team picked by them are Brian Orakpo and Davis. Talk about a complete failure at every level.

IMO the argument could be made that not going 2-14 or 3-13 the past couple years is a minor accomplishment (or a hindrance to the rebuild depending on how you want to look at it) especially given how easy it is for a team to fall hard when adversity sets in (See the Colts).

So it's pretty clear with hindsight that whether they turn out to be successful or not, the Shanahan's jumped into a plane that was in a nose dive plummeting towards the earth and are still trying overcome downward momentum to level off. If they can manage to pull it out of the dive before it smashes them into the ground remains to be seen.[/quote]I think you make a couple of really good arguments (strength of the division, improved discipline with regard to having dumb penalties), but ultimately, it's based around the conclusion that Shanahan is/has been a good coach here, when all the evidence in the world is telling us not to make the conclusion.

Teams go worst to first all the time. In fact, a better predictor of future win loss record than past win loss record is simply .500. Most teams start right in the middle of the pack every year instead of at the bottom. The Redskins aren't an exception.

The reason the Redskins finished at the bottom in 2010 and 2011, as they did in 2009, is because they are still doing a couple of things that are fundamentally wrong. 2012 is a new year and they are not resigned to being worse than the Cowboys, Eagles, and Giants. But if we are expecting them to lag behind, it is not because of the past. It's because the Cowboys, Eagles, and Giants are doing something consistently (particularly recently) each season that the Redskins are not.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

Here's the big point:

Oakland Raiders, 2009-2011
5-11 (got blown out by Zorn's Redskins at home)
8-8
8-8

Washington Redskins 2009-2011
4-12
6-10
5-11

Were the Redskins ever in worse shape than the Raiders? Almost certainly not. But the Raiders stopped making toxic organizational decisions for a moment, and while they didn't become a good team, they started to win big against bad teams.

Achieving mediocrity isn't the hard part of rebuilding a team. If Zorn was doing things fundamentally wrong, Shanahan should have had that corrected by year one. The fact that he didn't get that corrected by year two is especially troubling.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=GTripp0012;936481]
Achieving mediocrity isn't the hard part of rebuilding a team. If Zorn was doing things fundamentally wrong, Shanahan should have had that corrected by year one. The fact that he didn't get that corrected by year two is especially troubling.[/quote]

Can you be more specific? it's hard to argue with you because as best as I can determine you're saying "other teams go worst to first" and "why can't Shanahan".

IMO Zorn was in over his head, but he had a Veteran roster that was mostly coached by Joe Gibbs, which counter balanced his poor leadership with Veteran experience. Those guys retired, left, or just couldn't do it any more. Along with that a bunch of bad draft picks all proved out to be bad. All in the very short space of time after they hired Shanahan

I've pointed to specific reasons why the "momentum" of the teams skill level and leadership was PLUMMETING. And thus left the current regime in a bad spot. If your argument is "well other teams improve unexpectedly" I would ask you to detail WHY those teams improved? What did the new coach do that the previous one didn't?

IMO you'll find that most surprising teams are flashes in the pan, OR they were already stocked with talent, and the new coach didn't have to do much except LEAD THEM. I'll give two recent examples:

The 49'ers they were finally restocked with talent after years of low draft picks and rebuilding, all Harbaugh had to do was lead them and get them to pull in the same direction. The previous coach might have instilled some discipline, but he was also bad at managing the game in real time, in addition to his more "visible" faults of being a vindictive maniac who called his own players out on the air. Bring in "the good cop" to Singletary's "bad cop" and wallah.

On the other hand Rahim Morris got a flash in the pan, and then fired the following year... Do you honestly believe he was a good coach one year and sucked the next? His players got confident and pulled together and then the next they lost confidence after injuries and losses... Simple as that. The team dynamic at work and the HC got all the credit and then all the blame.

Sports, and especially Football just doesn't work that way. They are complex systems, the worst coach or the best coach only has so much effect... We fans give WAY more credit and way more blame than is actually due. And whats more most of us even recognize that we do this...Especially with QB's and coaches. Yet when we get emotional and our team is doing poorly we want heads to roll... Which is far more about our satisfaction (revenge for making our Sundays suck) than whats best for the long term direction of the team. Emotions do not make good long term decisions.

This emotional fan reaction is largely responsible for the state of the team under Snyder. Because Snyder IS A FAN, and he REACTS like a fan, so he gets that same satisfaction firing the coach that fans screaming for heads to roll, do. And predictably (or you can use 12 years of hindsight if you prefer) this results in a bad team with no long term direction or vision or plan, because every new regime is scrambling to make short term fixes before they get fired...

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

I think though if Shanahan was a half-decent head coach, any on-field issues related to Zorn being over his head should have been corrected by 2010. Some were (penalties for example), I think, but for a guy who we are giving a ton of credit to for making the roster better/young, there sure was many millions of dollars given to Larry Johnson and Donovan McNabb to be old.

There was also a lot of rebuilding moves that Shanahan opted not to make in the name of winning right away. DeAngelo Hall is STILL here. Santana Moss got paid with younger, more talented receivers out there. Albert Haynesworth did make the 2010 team, sort of. We traded a sixth round pick plus a useful piece for Tim Hightower. The contract standoff with London Fletcher (which the Redskins did --it should be noted-- win) turned me off a bit. And now with RG3, we know exactly what the top of every draft Shanahan will make as Redskins head coach will look like.

I do think a big part of the plan has been to get younger, but the thing we can say about the 2012 team is that every piece Mike Shanahan intended to put in place while coach of the Redskins is already in place. I don't think anyone, including coach Shanahan, thinks this is a complete team. But I think he really believes it's a good team, or he wouldn't have built it this way.

I'm not outright rejecting the perspective that Shanahan made the Redskins younger with the intent of winning over a long span of time as opposed to right away. That might well prove to be true. If so, it's almost certainly going to require someone else to come in here and finish what he started.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=GTripp0012;936481]Here's the big point:

Oakland Raiders, 2009-2011
5-11 (got blown out by Zorn's Redskins at home)
8-8
8-8

Washington Redskins 2009-2011
4-12
6-10
5-11

Were the Redskins ever in worse shape than the Raiders? Almost certainly not. But the Raiders stopped making toxic organizational decisions for a moment, and while they didn't become a good team, they started to win big against bad teams.

Achieving mediocrity isn't the hard part of rebuilding a team. If Zorn was doing things fundamentally wrong, Shanahan should have had that corrected by year one. The fact that he didn't get that corrected by year two is especially troubling.[/quote]

Exactly what NFL coaching experience do you have that would make you qualified to speak about the fundamentals of coaching in the NFL and whether or not Mike Shanahan has been performing those fundamentals correctly?

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

I do think the argument that the 2009 Redskins were in so much worse shape than other unsuccessful teams at the time is a huge red herring. 2009 was so long ago. The Vikings were in the NFC Championship. The Chiefs were perennially a top of the draft organization. The Jay Cutler trade was the laughingstock of the NFL. The Lions had won 3 of their last 40 games. Tony Romo won a playoff game. Trent Williams was a college right tackle.

And the Redskins lost some close games by making stupid boneheaded mistakes and came in at 4-12 well below their talent level. And people like Cerrato got fired. It's time to stop using the past as the excuses for questionable moves being made in the present, like the Redskins' interest in Steve Slaton.

Re: My evaluation of Shanahan starts now
 

[quote=skinsguy;936499]Exactly what [B][U]NFL coaching experience do you have that would make you qualified[/U][/B] to speak about the fundamentals of coaching in the NFL and whether or not Mike Shanahan has been performing those fundamentals correctly?[/quote]

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