A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

Let's talk about re-building.

I want to know where you view your Washington Redskins in 2012. Whether you believed the Redskins were/were not rebuilding last year isn't relevant. Last year is in the past. What are your expectations for 2012? Through what lens are you trying to view this offseason?

On one hand, the Redskins are planning on rebuilding around young talent like Garcon, Hankerson, and Griffin. Maybe you don't think they have the pieces to compete in 2012 and that's okay: the Redskins aren't giving large contracts to players over the age of 27. They didn't last year, and they haven't this year. A targeted rebuilding project can be completed while core signings like Cofield, Bowen, Wilson, Garcon, and Morgan are under the age of 30. Maybe it doesn't matter that we're letting players walk when their rookie contracts are up: that's what rebuilding teams do.

On the other hand, can a rebuilding team really give up any and all future first rounders it has for the duration of the head coaches' contract? Isn't that the ultimate "cashing in the chips" move? And why use up the entirety of your cap space, whatever the number is, if you're rebuilding? The Redskins cashed in everything to build the best possible passing game they could have going into 2012; that doesn't strike one as patient or building.

But in the context of a multi-year rebuilding project? This might just be the most costly step in the process. No one said buying yourself a passing offense was cheap or easy.

Finally, do you think the Redskins even know if they're rebuilding or not? It seems like they could spin it either way at this point (lose = rebuilding, win = future is now!). I personally am tired of the front office spin though, I'd rather get YOUR perspective. So have at it.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

Yeah, we are rebuilding still. Too many holes to fill in terms of starting caliber players, along with depth issues at O line and LB in my opinion. The gamble for RG III probably will pay off, but most likely hold back the team a year or two in finishing the process. We are moving in the right direction, but we could have used those 2 extra first rounders. I understand we desperately need a true starting caliber QB, but we paid a steep price to get him.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

I think the Redskins are finally rebuilding on offense (two years too late if you ask me). Last year to me, seemed like a rebuilding year for the defense. We have a lot of young players that hopefully can develop into starters (though some of them got starts last year due to injury), and hopefully we can pick up 6 more rookies (in addition to RG3) that can contribute to the team. I think we have done a good job at bringing in free agents under 30 years old for the most part this offseason and last offseason.

So far, it seems to me that the team has gone away from the win-now attitude. Although who knows what would have happened if we had not had the cap penalty. Still, I think we have a young team who won't be expected to do much this season, but has the potential to overachieve. I get the feeling that Snyder has given Shanahan and Bruce Allen a mulligan for the past two seasons. And that is a good thing, because we will definitely have a lot of growing pains this upcoming season.

Still, what I want to see from Shanahan is leadership. I don't want to see a team that gives up midway through the season. I don't want to see any more drama with players. And I want to see a competitive team on the field, and an improved offense. I think RG3's leadership will help and I think bringing back Fletch will help in the leadership department. This team has some talent, but I think they have been lacking from coaching/locker room leadership in the past two seasons. Hopefully this changes this season.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

I'm not really getting caught up in it because their moves don't indicate a clear path in one direction, but I think they decided trading up for the #2 was the best option because they didn't want to go into next season with a combo of 2nd rate talents. I think they briefly flirted with the idea of bringing Manning in, but that was out once Manning decided he didn't want to come here.

So they realized the qb options were drying up quickly, and they also realized if they didn't get an elite prospect in here this season and we had another bad season, patience probably would've ran out and Snyder would've let them go. So they gambled big and now are hedging their bets on whichever rookie qb we pick (prob. Griffin). I think they have an idea of the direction they want to go in, but they aren't strictly abiding by the rules of that plan. It's more just a loose direction they want to go in.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

To even think playoffs before 2014 would be iffy to me. Not only did we lose the two first rounders, we lost a second rounder as well, so one of these upcoming drafts we will probably not yield any starting material, unless we get a Cooley type gem in the late rounds.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;903360]Yeah, we are rebuilding still. Too many holes to fill in terms of starting caliber players, along with depth issues at O line and LB in my opinion. The gamble for RG III probably will pay off, but most likely hold back the team a year or two in finishing the process. We are moving in the right direction, but we could have used those 2 extra first rounders. I understand we desperately need a true starting caliber QB, but we paid a steep price to get him.[/quote]Would it be fair to say the cost to get RG3 won't be felt now (RG3 could be a huge upgrade to our offense even as a rookie), but much harder in 2013-2017?

If so, that would mean playoffs now are a lot more viable than playoffs in the near-term future.

I think our chances in 2012 and leaking into 2013 are as good as they are going to get until 2016, when we already have a good concept of what RG3 means to us.

We could be a perennial playoff team and NFC East contender, but that would require Griffin to be a 30 TD guy right from the start.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;903365]To even think playoffs before 2014 would be iffy to me. Not only did we lose the two first rounders, we lost a second rounder as well, [B]so one of these upcoming drafts we will probably not yield any starting material[/B], unless we get a Cooley type gem in the late rounds.[/quote]

Perry Riley, Roy Helu, Leonard Hankerson, Jarvins Jenkins, and Evan Royster are all players acquired after the first round in the past two seasons that have the potential to be starters. While it is terrible that we don't have our first rounders in 2013 and 2014, I don't see why we can't acquire a starter in the mid rounds during those two years.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

I don't think teams have time to rebuild in the nfl, 3 years and no playoffs usually means your fired, we will always try I improve the team, but look at last years 49ers, people would say they were rebuilding and they made it to the championship game, it's the nfl anythings possible

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=Pigskins;903369]I don't think teams have time to rebuild in the nfl, 3 years and no playoffs usually means your fired, we will always try I improve the team, but look at last years 49ers, people would say they were rebuilding and they made it to the championship game, it's the nfl anythings possible[/quote]

I don't follow the 49ers a lot, but I think roster-wise they really didn't make a ton of changes. I guess you could say they were rebuilding b/c they got a new coach, but it happens that there was talent in that roster, they just needed a coach that can make that talent produce.

I think the Bengals were a better example of your point. I kinda hope we would be on the same situation, but given our crappy secondary I don't think our defense is going to be that good (which was a big part of the Bengals' success if memory serves me right).

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

Here's some interesting stats for context.

The average age of an NFL player (as of Dec. 31, 2012) is 27.3 years of age, and the median entry draft for a current NFL player is 2009 (which means that half the NFL was drafted during or prior to the 2009 draft, and half during or after it).

For the Washington Redskins, the average player is 26.8 years old (goes to 27.0 if you include Fletcher), and the median draft class is 2009.

All those numbers will drop considerably following the draft for all teams.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=Ruhskins;903367]Perry Riley, Roy Helu, Leonard Hankerson, Jarvins Jenkins, and Evan Royster are all players acquired after the first round in the past two seasons that have the potential to be starters. While it is terrible that we don't have our first rounders in 2013 and 2014, I don't see why we can't acquire a starter in the mid rounds during those two years.[/quote]If you add up the probabilities of finding a starter in rounds 3-6, you come to the expectation of getting one starter of the middle rounds every year.

Or phrased a bit differently, if you had the 15th pick in every round from 3-6, and you put all your scouting resources to trying to find the best pick available at a position where the player wasn't blocked in every round, you would expect to be successful one of those picks, and unsuccessful with three of those picks.

So while the Redskins are not guaranteed any starters in this draft not named Robert Griffin, they can reasonably expect to find at least one guy later on who can move into the starting lineup.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

My opinion on the subject is that this isn't the NFL of a couple decades ago. I think MOST teams in today's NFL are forced to sort of rebuild every year or at least every couple-few years. Some teams and front offices do a better job at it than others. Unfortunately for many years we have had a pretty bad front office, inconsistency with coaches and offensive/defensive schemes, and an owner who liked to meddle too much...(not to mention subpar QB play) so we are perhaps further behind in the process of fielding a quality team year-in and year-out than a program like the Redskins should be.

I hear the word parity used a lot with regard to the NFL these days, and I do think there is more parity now than ever before due to the constant turnover of personnel amongst the teams. Not just players either; there is turnover with coaches, assistants, FO personnel, GMs, etc. This turnover causes every team to sort of "rebuild" or "build" constantly. The task of taking all the new pieces, schemes, personalities, etc. and putting it together to field a competitive organization each year is a challenge. Programs with great program managers, and stability in the coaching staff (i.e. Patriots, Steelers, Packers, etc.) and key positions (i.e. QB) are obviously better at this than programs that just seem to fumble through each year (i.e. Redskins).

Everyone with common sense knew that after bringing on board the new front office, GM, Coaching staff, philosophy, etc. it would take a few years to right the ship. I would say that the Redskins are in a much better position now than they were three years ago. I think this time next year I will say this team is in a much better position than they were a year ago... Have there been mistakes? Sure they happen. Will there be more mistakes? Yes. However, we are moving in the right direction. I think the future is now and I think we will continue to build this thing.

And for the record, Idon't think we have "mortgaged our future" for RGIII. I think that was a move that had to be made. Guys like RGIII and Luck don't come along very often. I commend them for getting that done.

I for one am looking forward to the next several years...

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=mooby;903364]I'm not really getting caught up in it because their moves don't indicate a clear path in one direction, but I think they decided trading up for the #2 was the best option because they didn't want to go into next season with a combo of 2nd rate talents. I think they briefly flirted with the idea of bringing Manning in, but that was out once Manning decided he didn't want to come here.

So they realized the qb options were drying up quickly, and they also realized if they didn't get an elite prospect in here this season and we had another bad season, patience probably would've ran out and Snyder would've let them go. So they gambled big and now are hedging their bets on whichever rookie qb we pick (prob. Griffin). I think they have an idea of the direction they want to go in, but they aren't strictly abiding by the rules of that plan. It's more just a loose direction they want to go in.[/quote]I think you're probably right on every point here. But without trying to get you caught up in it, where would you predict their next move is, if you had to guess: towards 2012, or towards 2013-2016?

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

If RGIII lives up to the number 2 pick? This team won't rebuild for long

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;903377]If RGIII lives up to the number 2 pick? This team won't rebuild for long[/quote]So they aren't rebuilding? Or you don't expect RG3 to live up to the no. 2 pick (at least right away)?

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

I'm just trying to get someone on record saying that, unequivocally, the Redskins are not rebuilding/are no longer rebuilding/never were rebuilding.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=GTripp0012;903379]I'm just trying to get someone on record saying that, unequivocally, the Redskins are not rebuilding/are no longer rebuilding/never were rebuilding.[/quote]


Why?

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

We need to look on our roster & see how many other team 1st rd picks we have. What did we give up to get them next to nothing most of the time. 2013-14 picks are gone IMO we need to stop crying about it. We have our QB now so we are rebuilding officially. Hopefully we trade back a few times and find a few Diamonds in the rough in the 5th thru 7th round. We have 5 or 6 picks hopefully we can turn them into 8 to 10. Last year spoiled me.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=GTripp0012;903376]I think you're probably right on every point here. But without trying to get you caught up in it, where would you predict their next move is, if you had to guess: towards 2012, or towards 2013-2016?[/quote]

I would say towards 2013-2016. The free agents we've brought in that are expected to make significant contributions (i.e. not Cedric Griffin) are mostly in their mid 20's with room for improvement. With Griffin/Luck in the fold I think as of now they are setting themselves up for an average season this year, with the hope that maybe they'll exceed expectations, and then in 2013 we should have solidified the roster enough that we will expect to contend for the playoffs.

I think when Shanny originally came on board, he didn't expect it to take this long and be as troublesome as it has (which he has already admitted). This is probably his revised plan of action (as far as how many revisions this plan has had, I have no idea lol.). But I don't mind it, because I do believe that if Griffin pans out like we expect him to, nobody, other than the serial naysayers, will be complaining about the price we paid to get him. I've never had the opportunity to witness this team with a bona fide stud qb under center before, and I'm excited to see how much better that will make our team.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=Ruhskins;903363]I think the Redskins are finally rebuilding on offense (two years too late if you ask me). Last year to me, seemed like a rebuilding year for the defense. We have a lot of young players that hopefully can develop into starters (though some of them got starts last year due to injury), and hopefully we can pick up 6 more rookies (in addition to RG3) that can contribute to the team. I think we have done a good job at bringing in free agents under 30 years old for the most part this offseason and last offseason.

So far, it seems to me that the team has gone away from the win-now attitude. Although who knows what would have happened if we had not had the cap penalty. Still, I think we have a young team who won't be expected to do much this season, but has the potential to overachieve. I get the feeling that Snyder has given Shanahan and Bruce Allen a mulligan for the past two seasons. And that is a good thing, because we will definitely have a lot of growing pains this upcoming season. [/quote]

I'm definitely in this camp. To answer GTripp's question literally, are we rebuilding, yes. By rebuilding the inference is that we are not a Super Bowl contender at this point which I don't really think is up for debate. However, I expect to see the most talented and most balanced Redskin team since 2007 on the field next year and a much improved product than in recent seasons.

I'm not really of the belief that the RGIII trade has crippled our chances to improve over the next 3 off seasons. That mentality is rooted in the belief that we will still be a 4-7 win team and picking in the upper 1/3 of the draft. I'm not discounting the value of first round picks but they are not a guarantee of success. We still have plenty of picks over the next three years to build a legitimate contender, assuming RGIII is what he appears to be. It's been so long since we've had quality at that position, we forget how much an elite QB can raise the performance of the overall team.

To answer the final question, yes, I think there is a plan and has been since 2010. 2010 evaluate the roster and start the 3-4 transition, try to win with core players plus a couple of additions. 2011 focus on building a playoff defense through the draft and free agency. 2012 focus on building a playoff offense, focusing on skill positions (that's why I don't think an early pick on a RB is out of the question) and specify areas of need. The cap penalties probably derailed our full plan this offseason but we targeted players to address one of our major shortcomings in recent years, team speed and explosive players.

I've been saying since late 2011 and into the early offseason, my evaluation of Shanahan starts this season. He was playing with Zorn's roster in 2010 and was hindered by a lockout in 2011. Now he's built his defense and his offense, let's see what he does with them.

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;903378]So they aren't rebuilding? Or you don't expect RG3 to live up to the no. 2 pick (at least right away)?[/QUOTE]

I think it's a bit of both, I do think griff will be a great qb but I obviously see some hard times next year. I'd be happy with 7-8 wins. But I don't think mike is really rebuilding do you?

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=Ruhskins;903363]I think the Redskins are finally rebuilding on offense (two years too late if you ask me). Last year to me, seemed like a rebuilding year for the defense. We have a lot of young players that hopefully can develop into starters (though some of them got starts last year due to injury), and hopefully we can pick up 6 more rookies (in addition to RG3) that can contribute to the team. I think we have done a good job at bringing in free agents under 30 years old for the most part this offseason and last offseason.

So far, it seems to me that the team has gone away from the win-now attitude. Although who knows what would have happened if we had not had the cap penalty. Still, I think we have a young team who won't be expected to do much this season, but has the potential to overachieve. I get the feeling that Snyder has given Shanahan and Bruce Allen a mulligan for the past two seasons. And that is a good thing, because we will definitely have a lot of growing pains this upcoming season.[/quote]

What you wrote is in synch with my views. I have felt all along that the team has been rebuilding under Shanahan (even though MS avoids using the term rebuilding) and that it would take two free agency periods and two drafts
to begin to see the results on the field.

I think that what was done to acquire a Franchse QB had to be done if we were ever to become perennial contenders. If it turns out that we are able to draft a QB who becomes great, then the price will be worth it, although the loss of two first round picks and a second round pick could set back the timetable for our going deep into the playoffs.

I agree with you that the trade with the Rams has probably given MS more time to complete the rebuilding job. But would add the caveat that the team must play a more exciting brand of football in 2012 and become a team that nobody really wants to play for fear of being upset. I think that should be enough to satisfy Dan Snyder, for now.

It seems to me that by hitting the Skins with a whopping $30M cap penalty the day before the opening of FA, the NFL must have put a crimp in the Skins plans for acquiring impact FA's this year. I assume that Dan Snyder will understand the harm that must have done to MS's plans, as well.

I'm hoping that rebuilding is now acceptable to Dan Snyder and that DS has developed the requisite patience that goes with it. A change of direction at this point would be a disaster.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

Please define "rebuilding," because we can't really talk about the thread question without talking about the same thing.

If we go with a definition of "significant roster overhaul primarily during the offseason in an attempt to get younger," then spring 2011 we were rebuilding the defense and to a lesser extent the offense. In spring 2012 we seem to be rebuilding the offense by this definition.

Since rebuilding, in this definition, is primarily an offseason affair, we see that by August 2012 we will have substantially rebuilt both sides of the ball. Therefore an expectation of being competitive in the 2012 season and competitive to a greater extent beyond 2012 is fair.

My take on things.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=GTripp0012;903356]Finally, do you think the Redskins even know if they're rebuilding or not? It seems like they could spin it either way at this point (lose = rebuilding, win = future is now!). I personally am tired of the front office spin though, I'd rather get YOUR perspective. So have at it.[/quote]Imo, when your HC is also your GM the FO will sometimes operate at cross purposes.
The resulting schizophrenic personnel decisions can impede the team building process.
That doesn't mean that the team cannot be successful.
I've always felt the saving grace for Mike Shanahan the GM is the acumen of Mike Shanahan the coach.
What I've heard and observed from Mike Shanahan suggest to me that like most coaches, he will always believe any team that he coaches can win now.

or the more direct answer: [B][I]not[/I][/B] rebuilding

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

Rome wasn't built in a day. One day we will look back and say the same thin about the 2015 Super Bowl championship redskins.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=Ruhskins;903367]Perry Riley, Roy Helu, Leonard Hankerson, Jarvins Jenkins, and Evan Royster are all players acquired after the first round in the past two seasons that have the potential to be starters. While it is terrible that we don't have our first rounders in 2013 and 2014, I don't see why we can't acquire a starter in the mid rounds during those two years.[/quote]

You got me with the RBs, but Hankerson is still a question mark as a potential starter. The fact that we acquired Garcon and Morgan should have us fans thinking about what the coaches think about Hankerson. Riley and Jenkins are good, but we do need a few guys that can at least contend for Pro Bow honors. Those guys would just be able to make it as an average starter. I know there are gems to be found Ruh, and there are first round busts, but for one year we start off with a third round pick. I just hope our scouts earn their money. They are going to have to be the ones to pick up the slack with the RG III deal.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

Tripp, they are still rebuilding. Even though it is an all in move to get RG3, its the most important piece of the puzzle. This is not a questionable move. This isnt Locker at 8, this isnt Jamarcus at 1, or Tannehill at 4. This is not a reach. Is it a sure thing? Absolutely not. But it is a necessary risk and a perceived great move by mostly everything I read and heard. Thats what's your question is really about.

Please dont expect 30 tds, thats retarded. But I will say this, if we get a Cam-like year from RG3 we are a 10 win team my friend.

Yeah we are not giving stupid ass contracts to guys over 27 or whatever the age is, but getting our cap/contract situation is a strength. You know the great thing about the CBA, top 10 picks money-wise doesnt matter, doesnt hurt us financially one bit if RG3 doesnt pan.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;903393]You got me with the RBs, but Hankerson is still a question mark as a potential starter. The fact that we acquired Garcon and Morgan should have us fans thinking about what the coaches think about Hankerson. Riley and Jenkins are good, but we do need a few guys that can at least contend for Pro Bow honors. Those guys would just be able to make it as an average starter. I know there are gems to be found Ruh, and there are first round busts, but [B]for one year we start off with a third round pick.[/B] I just hope our scouts earn their money. They are going to have to be the ones to pick up the slack with the RG III deal.[/quote]

Which year would that be?

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=Paintrain;903401]Which year would that be?[/quote]

Well, if you don't count that worthless 2nd overall pick, that would be this year.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=mooby;903403]Well, if you don't count that worthless 2nd overall pick, that would be this year.[/quote]

Yeah, not like we're getting arguably the best prospect in the draft but we won't have a pick in the 2nd round!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! The horror, the shame, the soul piercing agony!

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=Paintrain;903404]Yeah, not like we're getting arguably the best prospect in the draft but we won't have a pick in the 2nd round!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! The horror, the shame, the soul piercing agony![/quote]

Exactly! No 2nd round pick = DOOOOOOOOOOMED! Who cares if RG3 could make as big a difference as multiple players?!

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

Why worry about labeling it as rebuilding or not? Call it whatever you want. All I care is that the team heads in the right direction.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=mooby;903405]Exactly! No 2nd round pick = DOOOOOOOOOOMED! Who cares if RG3 could make as big a difference as multiple players?![/quote]

WOW! What will the saints do with no 2nd round pick for 2 whole years. They may as well stop playing football. Its not that bad, if the scouts are doing their job the skins will survive.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=mooby;903403]Well, if you don't count that worthless 2nd overall pick, that would be this year.[/quote]

Worthless? No. Personally I'm glad that we traded up to draft a long snapper.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=skinsguy;903406]Why worry about labeling it as rebuilding or not? Call it whatever you want. All I care is that the team heads in the right direction.[/quote]

ditto

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

I don't call it rebuilding. Shanahan and Allen have retooled an once aging roster and made it younger by adding key players here and there. This team will keep getting younger as it gets better.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

Young QB, and a lot of new WR's I say we are rebuilding its somewhat similar to the 49ers.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;903414]I don't call it rebuilding. Shanahan and Allen have retooled an once aging roster and made it younger by adding key players here and there. [B]This team will keep getting younger as it gets better[/B].[/quote]


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpZGV_m0twg]The Curious Case of Benjamin Button Official Theatrical Trailer - YouTube[/ame]

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[quote=NYCskinfan82;903437][url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpZGV_m0twg]The Curious Case of Benjamin Button Official Theatrical Trailer - YouTube[/url][/quote]

That's one of my all time favorite movies.

Anyway. I don't consider it re-building... To me re-building is when you're missing major parts (QBs, RBs, WRs, etc) or after you've completely blown up the team (i.e. Colts).

Feels like we're just adding a few missing pieces. I feel like last year we could've been good, if we had had just 2 or 3 more valuable positions filled properly... And some o-line depth.

Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building
 

[QUOTE=mooby;903405]Exactly! No 2nd round pick = DOOOOOOOOOOMED! Who cares if RG3 could make as big a difference as multiple players?![/QUOTE]




But that 2nd round CB we could have drafted would be CHAMP BAILEY GREAT!!!!!!!!