Ongoing CBA discussions
 

With just over a month to go before the CBA expires, I am sure February will be filled with lots of CBA rumors, discussions, posturing, threats, and every now and then some actual facts. One source that I think highly of, mainly for his insight and clarity, is Andrew Brandt. He is on every Wednesday morning at 630 with Ross Tucker on Sirius NFL radio, and presents good information. Here is a link to part 6 of his Labor series. Sets a pretty realistic, but positive tone for what we all hope will be an extension of NFL labor peace.

[url=http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/NFL-Labor-pains-part-six.html]NFL Labor pains, part six | National Football Post[/url]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

Good thread, thanks for the article link. Good info there.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

Thanks for posting this, good read. Only a month & change away, I can't see it getting done by then but what matters is if it's done by the draft, if not, is it done by training camp and so on.

Very disappointed that he thinks the players will go for the 18 games in return for other concessions. I really think the 18 game season will be produce noticeable change to the nfl in the long run, none of it positive either.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

NFLPA has ad rejected from CBS:
[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/early-lead/2011/01/nflpa_says_cbs_rejected_its_le.html]The Early Lead - NFLPA says its 'Let us play' ad was rejected by CBS College Sports Network[/url]

Here is the ad:
(nevermind couldn't get the YT link to work)
The ad itself seemed fairly useless to me, not sure it would sway many people's views, but I can't see them not being allowed to air it.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

Nice try nflpa, but CBS wasn't about to piss off it's clients!

In other news, Peter King said yesterday that he thinks the 18 game season is a done deal, as others have. He also said he thinks the 2011 season will be shortened by the negotiations as the nfl is a "deadline league" in that deals have always been struck at the last minute. He thinks one won't get done till the time preseason would be underway.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=freddyg12;781693]Nice try nflpa, but CBS wasn't about to piss off it's clients!

In other news, Peter King said yesterday that he thinks [B]the 18 game season is a done deal[/B], as others have. He also said he thinks the 2011 season will be shortened by the negotiations as the nfl is a "deadline league" in that deals have always been struck at the last minute. He thinks one won't get done till the time preseason would be underway.[/quote]

Ugh, this is what pisses me off. The league is so set in having their 18 games, yet they haven't secured in actually having a season next year.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

The league to trying to implement an integrative bargaining tactic. The only way to give the players more money, is to increase the size of the pie, which 18 games does. If you stick with a 16 game schedule, there won't be any more revenue to split with the players, and the owners know that the players won't accept a deal for less money than they receive now.

From what I have seen, the players have elected a distributive bargainer in DeMaurice Smith... he views everything in win or lose, yours or mine, for every gain there is an equal loss... basically he sees the pie as fixed, and that his job is to secure as much as possible of it from the owners. Bad move. The owners, with no contract starting on 3/3, can, following a lock out, declare an "impasse" and force players to either work under 2010 negotiated labor rules, or strike. If players strike, the League has already won since public perception is ALWAYS against a strike and fans would quickly turn on the players.

18 games is almost a required outcome if a new deal is to be struck this year.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=Mc2guy;781702]The league to trying to implement an integrative bargaining tactic. The only way to give the players more money, is to increase the size of the pie, which 18 games does. If you stick with a 16 game schedule, there won't be any more revenue to split with the players, and the owners know that the players won't accept a deal for less money than they receive now.

From what I have seen, the players have elected a distributive bargainer in DeMaurice Smith... he views everything in win or lose, yours or mine, for every gain there is an equal loss... basically he sees the pie as fixed, and that his job is to secure as much as possible of it from the owners. Bad move. The owners, with no contract starting on 3/3, can, following a lock out, declare an "impasse" and force players to either work under 2010 negotiated labor rules, or strike. If players strike, the League has already won since public perception is ALWAYS against a strike and fans would quickly turn on the players.

18 games is almost a required outcome if a new deal is to be struck this year.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

A bargaining impasse occurs when the two sides negotiating an agreement are unable to reach an agreement and become deadlocked. An Impasse is almost invariably mutually harmful, either as a result of direct action which may be taken such as a strike in employment negotiation or sanctions/military action in international relations, or simply due to the resulting delay in negotiating a mutually beneficial agreement.

Since negotiations have not yet reached the point of no return, a very small window of time remains to consummate an agreement, unlikely though it may be.

There remains several issues proving stumbling blocks that will most surely result in an impasse if both sides remain as steadfast in their convictions as they've shown thus far, none more revealing than the issue of revenue sharing. The owners are emphatic about a change in that area, the players are less sympathetic and "that" I'm afraid is where the line will ultimately be drawn. A final take it or leave it offer will be made to the players, and fans fear the players will choose accept the latter.

Here is a simplistic view from Joe Gibbs, coupled with a boost to the ego of Dan Snyder from Ross Tucker.

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2011/02/joe_gibbs_on_the_redskins_and.html]D.C. Sports Bog - Joe Gibbs on the Redskins and labor strife[/url]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

No offense to Tucker or to Dan Steinberg here, but this was the point where I got off the wagon:

[INDENT][I]"Tucker then chimed in, thanking Gibbs for his comments on Snyder and saying that other owners around the league let the bottom line cloud their football decisions, unlike Snyder."[/I][/INDENT]
Dan Snyder is not focused on the bottom line? He has not let the bottom line cloud his decisions in the last decade?


Please...


Danny Boy - - as an NFL onwer - - is driven by his ego and his desire to make money hand over fist. Denying that makes everything else one might say of questionable validity...

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

On the very good chance that there will not be a new CBA by early March 2011, there are 3 possibilities:


1. The owners and players can agree to extend the current CBA and continue negotiating. That is unlikely since the owners acted to shorten the agreement in the first place bringing on this round of CBA negotiations. It is possible but not likely...

2. The owners can make a "last, best and final offer" to the players which the players would refuse and the owners can then implement them going forward pending a variety of legal hearings/trials/arbitrations down the line. The problem with that course is that it puts the players in the driver's seat. They can play until Thanksgiving under the new "owners' rules" and then go on strike killing off the end of the season and the playoffs and the Super Bowl. The owners are unlikely to put that kind of power in the hands of the NFLPA.

3. The owners can lockout the players. That leaves the NFLPA with the route of decertifying and suing the NFL on anti-trust grounds. They might win that suit but winning the suit does NOT force the owners to restart a pro football schedule. It might be a Pyrrhic victory for lots of players...


Absent a new CBA, there really aren't a whole lot of other scenarios here that do not require the intervention of the Tooth Fairy. If there is no CBA, the owners are almost forced into a "lockout" strategy because Option 1 weakens their argument that the current deal is economically burdensome for them and Option 2 hands the NFLPA a loaded gun to put to the heads of the owners.

When it happens, it might help a bit if we all understood that it was inevitable once the owners chose to shorten the current CBA...

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Goodell LIED TO ME!!!!@@*&#(@&#*(@&( MotHeR F&#*(*R!!!!! HE ASSured M3 DaT FUns weRe eXXXXXcited bout 18 game Season. Yet smart pe0ple R tell me dat 27% eQUAlz N0T Guud!
[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6086002]AP poll: Lukewarm support for 18-game season - ESPN[/url]

[QUOTE]An Associated Press-Knowledge Networks poll released Thursday shows only lukewarm backing at best for a switch from 16 to 18 regular-season games, one of the NFL's key -- and easiest-to-understand -- proposals in its labor negotiations with the players' union.

Of everyone surveyed, 27 percent strongly favor or somewhat favor adding two regular-season games and dropping two preseason games. When the group is narrowed to those identifying themselves as NFL fans, support for the change rises to a total of 45 percent -- yet only 18 percent who strongly favor it.[/QUOTE]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]One thing that has been great about the Steelers being in the Superbowl is their against the gain style gets a lot of air time. I think James Harrison is now my favorite non-Redskin and I agree with him and the whole Steelers organization on a lot of stuff. I am against a 18 game season, like Dan Rooney and almost all the players and im also against the crackdown on hard hits James Harrison and a lot of the players. Hopefully having very well respected players and ownership/management that are also very vocal will help solve some of these problems in the new CBA.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Calibri][url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/03/james-harrison-fires-away-on-18-game-season-fines-penalties/]James Harrison fires away on 18-game season, fines, penalties | ProFootballTalk[/url][/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Also I wouldn’t say im anti-Steelers guy but im definitely not a pro stealers guy, im just pretty neutral towards them as a team to roote for or against. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

An 18 game season is the NFL equivalent of a tax hike. When governments can't come to consensus on programs or budgets to cut, the easiest way to balance the books is to increase taxes. I see the 18 game schedule in the same way, it is the easiest 'out' for both sides, while the fans will be paying for it.

I know part of the logic is reducing the preseason, but that is such a bogus argument. Starters usually don't play anymore than 6 quarters in preseason as it is. Preseason games are largely about evaluating new players. You take those games away, coaches will still have to evaluate those guys, whether that's in full contact scrimmages w/other teams or practice. Preseason games don't cause injuries, playing football does.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=freddyg12;782127]An 18 game season is the NFL equivalent of a tax hike. When governments can't come to consensus on programs or budgets to cut, the easiest way to balance the books is to increase taxes. I see the 18 game schedule in the same way, it is the easiest 'out' for both sides, while the fans will be paying for it.

I know part of the logic is reducing the preseason, but that is such a bogus argument.[B] Starters usually don't play anymore than 6 quarters in preseason as it is[/B]. Preseason games are largely about evaluating new players. You take those games away, coaches will still have to evaluate those guys, whether that's in full contact scrimmages w/other teams or practice. Preseason games don't cause injuries, playing football does.[/quote]

Plus in those 6 Quarters of football the starters are playing at a level that I would describe as self-preservation. The difference in intensity between the pre-season and regular season is laughable. If I had to quantify it I would say that 1 quarter of regular season football equals 4 quarters of preseason football.

Speaking of which, remember when Haynesworth played every snap against the Cards in the final preseason game? Good times.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=freddyg12;782127]An 18 game season is the NFL equivalent of a tax hike. When governments can't come to consensus on programs or budgets to cut, the easiest way to balance the books is to increase taxes. I see the 18 game schedule in the same way, it is the easiest 'out' for both sides, while the fans will be paying for it.

[B]I know part of the logic is reducing the preseason, but that is such a bogus argument. [/B]Starters usually don't play anymore than 6 quarters in preseason as it is. Preseason games are largely about evaluating new players. You take those games away, coaches will still have to evaluate those guys, whether that's in full contact scrimmages w/other teams or practice. Preseason games don't cause injuries, playing football does.[/quote]

Yes. There is no law that the league must play 20 games. If they wanted to reduce the preseason, they could cut preseason games to 2 and still keep the 16 games schedule.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

how about just add another round to the playoffs, give each division winner a bye week and have a true wildcard weekend

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=Lotus;782153]Yes. There is no law that the league must play 20 games. If they wanted to reduce the preseason, they could cut preseason games to 2 and still keep the 16 games schedule.[/quote]Agreed. Also, I think one of the biggest problems that fans, especially season ticket holders, have with the preseason is that we still have to pay full price for such a watered down product. I bet that if the NFL set some kind of a mandate that said teams could only charge, say, 50% of the regular season ticket price for preseason games less people would have a problem with them.
Obviously I see why the owners would never go for this idea, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=ArtMonkDrillz;782175]Agreed. Also, I think one of the biggest problems that fans, especially season ticket holders, have with the preseason is that we still have to pay full price for such a watered down product. I bet that if the NFL set some kind of a mandate that said teams could only charge, say, 50% of the regular season ticket price for preseason games less people would have a problem with them.
Obviously I see why the owners would never go for this idea, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.[/quote]

I thought pre-season games were cheaper all along.

Which reminds me. I got a call from the Redskins today saying that I am in line to purchase season tickets.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=skinsguy;782176]I thought pre-season games were cheaper all along.

Which reminds me. I got a call from the Redskins today saying that I am in line to purchase season tickets.[/quote]

Probably nose bleeds anyway. That's what happened to me. I went to a Nationals game two years ago and ran into two women on the metro who happened to be selling club level season tickets. Why I never bought them is beyond me. When the Skins office calls your number its usually bad ones from people I've talked to.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=skinsguy;782176]I thought pre-season games were cheaper all along.

Which reminds me. I got a call from the Redskins today saying that I am in line to purchase season tickets.[/quote]

How can that be? The Redskins have sold out their last 30 bazillion games in a row and had 100,000,000 people on the waiting list for tix for the last two decades.

Must be your lucky day. Go buy a lottery ticket...

BTW, I have been called at least a half dozen times since Christmas regarding the purchase of season tickets for next year - - and parking for each game too plus I got a package in the mail identifying my "personal expediter" on the Skins' staff whom I could call any time to make my purchase.

Now hear this. I NEVER sought to have my name put on the mythical season ticket waiting list. They are calling folks on "mail lists" that they have assembled from demographic data in the area.

So much for sell-outs and thousands of folks on the waiting list to get tickets...

Oh, and exhibition games are the same price per game per seat as regular season games...

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

I must be doing something wrong, I signed up for season tix a long time ago and have never heard anything

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I am still on the list for the lower bowl, but from time to time they will offer you club level seats to 1. expedite you lower level waiting process 2. fill those expensive ass seats.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

guys!....let me give my boy D SNYDER a call...I'm sure we can get some quality tickets....

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=Mattyk;782256]I must be doing something wrong, I signed up for season tix a long time ago and have never heard anything[/quote]

those are all a diff email, phone, and postal address for me now

signed up in 03

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=Mattyk;782256]I must be doing something wrong, I signed up for season tix a long time ago and have never heard anything[/quote]


Well, here are the details:

[B][I]Ticket pricing options including tax:
Front Endzone (rows 1-15) or Sideline/Corner (rows 16-29) - $704.00/season ticket
Front Sideline/Corner (rows 1-15) - $869.00/season ticket

Sideline seats: Section 409-446 and Section 419-436.
Endzone seats: Section 410-418 and Section 437-445.
You may enroll in our “automatic upgrade” program that upgrades your seats each year when available.

In addition to the cost of the ticket, there is a flat $25.00 processing and handling fee and a one-time activation fee of $100 per seat.

All that is required to reserve your 2011 season tickets is just a $50 per seat down payment.
[/I][/B]

I don't have the money this year nor am I close enough to go to more than maybe one home game. I tend to agree with SC on this one.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

Glad to see the NFL stepping up for retirees, unfortunately the NFLPA wasn't included, and so it seems as much an attempt to divide and conquer versus serious concern for the retired players.

[url=http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81e16c1a/article/nfl-will-pay-longterm-care-insurance-premiums-for-alumni]NFL.com news: NFL will pay long-term care insurance premiums for alumni[/url]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2010/news/story?id=6090457"]Goodell: Owners committed to agreement[/URL]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=SkinzWin;782429][URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2010/news/story?id=6090457"]Goodell: Owners committed to agreement[/URL][/quote]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I think the biggest thing right now is the 18 game "enhancement".[/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]“We started this with the fans,” Goodell said. “The fans have clearly stated that they don’t like the preseason. We have a 20-game format, 16 regular season games and four preseason games, and the fans have repeatedly said the preseason games don’t meet NFL standards. And that is the basis on which we started this 18-game concept, taking two low-quality preseason games and turning them into two high-quality regular season games.”[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]A recent [I]Associated Press[/I] poll, however, found that fan interest in an 18-game season was lukewarm at best. And NFL players are just about unanimous in their opposition to the 18-game season.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[URL="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/04/roger-goodell-18-game-season-is-what-fans-want/"][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff]http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/04/roger-goodell-18-game-season-is-what-fans-want/[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/URL]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]So this is what I hate about Goodell, what hes saying is just not true. From everything ive seen the people who really don’t like the preseason are season ticket holders, and that’s only because they are forced to buy them at regular season cost even though the value is half at best. Everyone else maybe isn’t thrilled about watching preseason games but realize it’s a important part of the game to find hidden gems and build depth. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Then he calls the current system a “20 game format” and compares it to a “18-game concept”, which to me is the NFL’s attempt to make it sound like there are less games where players can get hurt. This is a completely inaccurate comparison. 2 preseason games would still remain and a 20 game format would still exist, just 2 games now become non-preseason games. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]I also think what really ended up backfiring is the NFL trying to crack down on player safety this season and then also push for a 18 game season at the same time. People see through that, the timing is too coincidental. [/COLOR][/FONT]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/early-lead/2011/02/nfl_nfl_players_association_ca.html]The Early Lead - NFL, NFL Players Association cancel second day of talks[/url]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;783715][url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/early-lead/2011/02/nfl_nfl_players_association_ca.html]The Early Lead - NFL, NFL Players Association cancel second day of talks[/url][/quote]

While I'm not surprised that the talks have already stalled to the point that they are canceling meetings, I am depressed about it. This is going to be one long offseason with every story being doom and gloom and not just about the Redskins either.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=mlmpetert;782476][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I think the biggest thing right now is the 18 game "enhancement".[/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]“We started this with the fans,” Goodell said. “The fans have clearly stated that they don’t like the preseason. We have a 20-game format, 16 regular season games and four preseason games, and the fans have repeatedly said the preseason games don’t meet NFL standards. And that is the basis on which we started this 18-game concept, taking two low-quality preseason games and turning them into two high-quality regular season games.”[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]A recent [I]Associated Press[/I] poll, however, found that fan interest in an 18-game season was lukewarm at best. And NFL players are just about unanimous in their opposition to the 18-game season.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[URL="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/04/roger-goodell-18-game-season-is-what-fans-want/"][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff]http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/04/roger-goodell-18-game-season-is-what-fans-want/[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/URL]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]So this is what I hate about Goodell, what hes saying is just not true. From everything ive seen the people who really don’t like the preseason are season ticket holders, and that’s only because they are forced to buy them at regular season cost even though the value is half at best. Everyone else maybe isn’t thrilled about watching preseason games but realize it’s a important part of the game to find hidden gems and build depth. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Then he calls the current system a “20 game format” and compares it to a “18-game concept”, which to me is the NFL’s attempt to make it sound like there are less games where players can get hurt. This is a completely inaccurate comparison. 2 preseason games would still remain and a 20 game format would still exist, just 2 games now become non-preseason games. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]I also think what really ended up backfiring is the NFL trying to crack down on player safety this season and then also push for a 18 game season at the same time. People see through that, the timing is too coincidental. [/COLOR][/FONT][/quote]

What I can't stand about the preseason/18 game schedule logic is that they're trying to sell the idea that players won't be playing as much, thus safety isn't compromised. That isn't being said outright but Goodell's comments imply that.

We all know that starters & guys guaranteed roster spots are not playing much in preseason. Adding 2 real games will increase the risk of injury significantly. Or for some teams that have their playoff position locked by week 16, those two games will look like preseason because the coaches will be scared to play anybody. This is the beginning of a watering down of a good product.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

The issue of RS will outweigh all else including the 18 game schedule.

[url=http://www.csnwashington.com/02/08/11/Eisenberg-A-solution-to-NFL-labor-war/landing.html?blockID=406406&feedID=272]Eisenberg: A solution to NFL labor 'war'?[/url]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;783715][URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/early-lead/2011/02/nfl_nfl_players_association_ca.html"]The Early Lead - NFL, NFL Players Association cancel second day of talks[/URL][/quote]

They've also canceled a meeting that was scheduled for next week.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

I think they know that the lockout is inevitable at this point. There is no point to have meetings when they already know that they can't change anything....sad.

But maybe, let's hear it for the Replacement Redskins?? Shane Falco as QB maybe???

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

Preseason sucks...its boring....its just a glorified training camp.
Gimme 18 games!!!

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These things always go down to the final hour, I'm still holding out hope for a last minute deal to avoid a lockout.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=freddyg12;783718]What I can't stand about the preseason/18 game schedule logic is that they're trying to sell the idea that players won't be playing as much, thus safety isn't compromised. That isn't being said outright but Goodell's comments imply that.

We all know that starters & guys guaranteed roster spots are not playing much in preseason. Adding 2 real games will increase the risk of injury significantly. Or for some teams that have their playoff position locked by week 16, those two games will look like preseason because the coaches will be scared to play anybody. This is the beginning of a watering down of a good product.[/quote]


The more games you add the less meaningful each game is, see baseball or even NBA/NHL.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=Mattyk;783724]These things always go down to the final hour, I'm still holding out hope for a last minute deal to avoid a lockout.[/quote]


Just because I am stupid and really have not being following this very closely, when exactly is the final hour?

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=Mattyk;783724]These things always go down to the final hour, I'm still holding out hope for a last minute deal to avoid a lockout.[/quote]

You are correct, this is how almost all negotiations go. There will be a lot of back & forth but in the end a deal will get done in time for the season to start on time.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=Mattyk;783724]These things always go down to the final hour, I'm still holding out hope for a last minute deal to avoid a lockout.[/quote]

Ideally I want that too, as I'm sure most of us do. But I would rather sacrifice some of the season to get a deal that's good for both. 2006 that didn't happen & that's why we're at this juncture.